mattp

Anybody Else - Any other ideas about slab climbing styles? About rap vs lead bolting, about how the "honesty" of the first ascent affects your experience, about how we might - or whether we should - try to keep trad areas trad and sport areas sport? In the context of our small corner of human endeavor, these are great questions. Pope – I have bolted both on lead and on rap and I've placed what I believe to be both good and bad bolts both ways. I've also worked to clean up my own mess and what I saw as messes made by other climbers who did it both ways -- I've actually spent a good deal of effort on such projects and part of that included contacting or attempting to contact those other climbers before I took it upon my self to do anything (and yes, I can think of no better word than mess, though I suppose "crime" or "disgrace" might also apply in certain cases). In addition, I have discussed the relative merits of both approaches (rap or lead) with a fair number of people who are currently active around the State. I honestly believe that if practiced correctly, and that is a very big "if," rap bolting can produce a better crag climb. But I will say again that I don't completely discount the idea that there is some other significance to the method in which a first ascent was made. You and Clyde make some compelling arguments on this point. I think you are correct that it will be an uphill battle to "tell people how they should bolt their sport climbs," as you put it. Sport or trad, bolt installers or bolt pullers, crack-cleaners or fern savers, most of us are not warm to the idea that somebody doesn't like our style and we don't want to change what may have become a habit. And a lot of climbers, ego driven as you point out, are particularly resistant to being told what to do because their belief that they are both skilled and self-reliant is part of their schtick. But other than calling "the man" to shut the whole thing down, what else can you do but try to engage other climbers in a dialog and go from there. You suggested that I should not take it so personally. Perhaps you are right, but I should tell you that I genuinely cringe when I read some of your posts because they are so strident that in them I see no prospect for anything but further contempt between climbers with different points of view. I like the passion in your writing -- some of it I find amusing and some of it quite poignant, but I do believe that you overstate your case at times. As to the issue of the proliferation of bolts, keep up the good fight. And let's go climbing in the real world, outside, we could probably make headway toward answering these great questions. - Matt

One thing that I note in this thread is that we all seem to agree that bolted slab climbing can be an acceptable form of climbing. Also generally agreed (here at least) is that fewer is generally better -- that bolts are at least somewhat undesirable for environmental and aesthetic reasons, and that too many of them detract from the fun and challenge of a climb. But we all have different ideas about where the proper balance may lie, and we probably won't ever agree. I'm not sure about the idea of how the "honesty" of the first ascent affects the experience shared by subsequent parties, but that is a point worth pondering. One tangent that I'd like to comment on is the view expressed by Pope and supported by Norman that rappel bolting is always or even generally worse than bolting on lead. I disagree -- I think that putting bolts in the wrong place is always worse than putting them in the right place and while this may be more of a problem for rappel-bolters, it need not be. On rappel, it is easy to see what appears to be a good line, drill it, and then discover that one bolt cannot be reached from the logical stance and another that protects what you thought was the crux turns out to come just after rather than just before the crux. If you then drill a couple more holes, you have a mess. But when bolting on lead, it is equally easy to install a bolt at what is a comfortable stance only to then find out that the apparent route above doesn't work out and the bolt should have been ten feet to the right, or to run out of rope and install a hanging belay because you were too scared to downclimb to the belay ledge twenty feet below. In either scenario, those that come after you will have been greatly dis-served, even if the leader in the second example may have had a better excuse for what he or she did on that particular day. Indeed, the rappel bolter has greater opportunity to carefully evaluate the proposed line and to consider the need for and nuances of each and every placement. They also have a greater opportunity to make sure the holes go in clean and straight. For some reason, they often do not avail themselves of these opportunities. In part this is because the lack of risk involved means that those with less experience, who are more prone to making mistakes, are more likely to bolt on rappel. Further, it is just too easy. But while I recognize that a ban on the use of power drills or rappel bolting, if enforceable, might slow the proliferation of bolts, the real issue is not that rappel bolting is bad and a tirade against rappel bolting is just not going to make sense to many climbers these days. However, it is difficult to disagree with the argument that over-bolting and poorly planned bolting result in a mess, and a campaign oriented squarely toward these issues is likely to be more generally understood. Whether bolting on lead or on rappel, sensitivity is necessary and there is a great deal of skill and some art involved. It is not a "fresh perspective" as requested by Pope, but I believe that the best course of action lies in working together, to foster access to the widest possible range of climbing experiences, and in the context of the current discussion of slab climbing, I believe this holds true just as it does when talking more generally about rock climbing. Peshastin Pinnacles was closed for ten years. I believe that just a few years ago, Darrington was in real danger of being lost as a result of simple neglect, and Static Point is now closed, purportedly because of what I think is an irrational fear that some terrorist might try to poison the Everett water supply. At all three of these areas there is a very small group of people who expend an effort toward promoting climber access or maintaining and developing the climbs themselves. Unlike, perhaps, Vantage or Index, the slab climbers seem to be able to get along with each other and it is not because they all agree as to every aspect of style and ethics. This may be simply because there are not the crowds of those other areas, but I don't think any of these three slab-climbing areas has ever seen anyone turned away who wanted to help. If you want to see a particular style of climbing protected, its up to you. Really, it's that simple. [ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

But Jay, we might still entertain ourselves here. I think we are mostly all well-balanced and mature, thoughtful climbers around here, and I'm hoping we might address bolting and stylistic questions without simply repeating old arguments like "bolts suck and sport climbers aren't climbing" or "you trad nazi's don't know what you are talking about in this modern era" or whatever else has been said so many times. I suggested that Pope and I might better discuss the question of whether sport climbing is good or bad somewhere other than on this web site, but I think the question initially raised was one that we might be able to discuss without getting back to the rhetorical snake eating its tail. How do slab climbs fit into the sport-to-trad spectrum, and how do those who dislike sport bolting feel about bolted slabs. An equally interesting question to me would be, how do those who like sport climbing feel about them. Latch wrote that "When a person creates a route and puts a huge runnout into it, it's either because of ego (I'm bolder than you are), they were out of control (I can't down climb and their are no stances), the climbing is trivial for them or they are short on bolts. I don't know of anyone I have ever climbed with who went up on a blank slab and not put in a bolt because of environmental concerns." and I would generally agree with this statement. That leaves aside the question, however, as to whether a slab "needs" to be climbed at all, of course, and some of you may have another point pertinent to the topic. Maybe you agree with what I believe to be Jay's point that in an idea world there would be some areas that are run out and some that are not. Anybody else have another idea?

Yo Pope - I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I honestly thought you said that all it takes to climb the cutting edge routes at Vantage is the strength to do a pull up and the intelligence to clip a bolt (to me, an expression of disdain), and that those who want to satisfy their ego in such a manner must feel that the community be damned (to me, another expression of disdain). Why don't you show up at a pub club sometime, and we can continue this discussion face to face, where misunderstandings are less likely to occur. Or better yet, lets go climbing sometime. I mean it -- I'm not trying to be smartass, but only suggesting that in this on-line medium we don't seem to be getting anywhere. It seems mostly to be the same four or five guys, repeating the same old arguments, with no real dialogue and little prospect of convincing either those that do or those that do not participate of anything other than the fact that we enjoy wasting time on the internet. - mattp [ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

Chuck - I know you hate those things, but I find the "dog bones" work pretty well for me (for those who may not recognize this term of art, a "dog bone" is what most of us call a quick-draw, bar-tacked so as to close off any loop, make a tight connection to the biners at either end, and to stiffen the whole unit). I use the sling loops on the end of my cams for the flexibility that is generally sufficient to prevent my cams from walking into a crack. When I detect a potential problem, I add an extra biner or hang an extra piece on the runner to weight it and thus minimize up and down movement, or I use a longer runner (which on my rack is a loop). The dog bones keep the biners hanging the right way up and facilitate rapid clipping when one is on an insecure stance. - Matt

If bolt proliferation continues, climbing will be reduced to genetics where the dude with the strongest grip strength to weight ratio will always be the best climber I agree with the sentiment, but sport climbers will tell you there is technique involved in addition to strength, even on crimpy overhangs, and when it comes to slab climbing the strongest grip strength in the world won't do you a bit of good. I've seen strong sport climbers doing the dog paddle and getting nowhere on the slabs at Goat Dome in the Icicle -- and it was only in part because the bolts were too few for them -- some could do no better when following than when leading.

You might call to check, but I searched "Gulf Air" on Yahoo and came up with this. http://www.ptialaska.net/~gulfair/mtns3.htm "We regret that due to our loss of Kurt and his plane 00Q – we will be discontinuing mountain flying operations."

the bearded one with the levis soaked to his knees and orange external framepack That sounds like an Austrian named Ludwig, one of the old guard skiers who can be found alpine touring at Washington Pass or along Highway 2. The beard and soaked levis are his trademark, though it seems to me I may have seen him with a canvas sac millet or something like that rather than an orange frame pack. Anybody know him? He's fun to ski with. Years ago, he and Bill Stark and some others in the Leavenworth area proposed to build a ski area on Cashmere Mountain in the Icicle. I am not sure of the history on this, but I believe it may have been one of the economic development proposals under consideration when the Barfarian Village concept was put into play.

Actually, I think Iceguy should be out partying late AND getting up early for a weekend of outdoor exercise. That's what you were going to do, wasn't it Iceguy? See, I told you he's no poser.

Fairweather - That could be. But I rather suspect that those who have the prick attitude may be more into resort skiing than backcountry. If you want to strut like a peacock (and I think that is what you may be suggesting that they do), the backcountry just isn't the place to be -- unless you want to go show off your "prowess" in front of a bunch of gapers just outside the Paradise parking lot or something. - Matt

And lest you think I am talking about the people that ski up logging roads to bond with the woods, I should say that these are not in my opionion true backcountry explorers. Some of these "skiers" are just as clueless as a resort skier -- maybe evem more so because they have neither the skill of a serious skier or those of a backcountry traveller.

Oh yes, and I should add that in my experience, backcountry snowboarders and yes, even some backcountry snowmobilers, can be equally hip to what's happening and just as cool with the other backcountry users or drivers on the highway. Again, particularly in the case of the snowmobiliers, the generalization doesn't always hold up.

Fairweather - As to telemark skiers, I think I may understand where you are coming from. The telemark thing is really an accident of history and while some people believe it to be somehow spiritually superior, it is mostly just a fad that may or may not last (it has been around for twenty years or so, so maybe it will, and I should tell you that I am one of those "pinheads" but I recognize the fact that I am only into it because I used to eat granola and ski on wooden boards). I don't think I agree with you about snowboarders and alpine skiers, though. I believe the simpler and more accurate distinction is this: resort users (whether skiers, snowboarders or whatever) are generally clueless, whereas backcountry skiers are generally much more aware of where they are and what they are doing. I think this applies whether on the hill or on the highway getting there but, as with any generalization, the distinction does not always hold up. That is how I feel.-Mattp

Hey Rat - For some reason, I can't send you a Private Message, or I would. But if you have access to the DeLorme CD, I wonder if you could make something for me. email to mattp@seanet.com - Matt

quote: Originally posted by Jarred Jackman: ... if a storm comes in during August just find an overhang, Wall Street if you're on the Exum, and wait it out, everyone will bail off the hill and you'll be sitting in the sun an hour later with the dry perfect rock to yourselves. Good advice--these storms are generally short lived and while unpleasant in the moment, not life threatning -- except if you get fried. Any good Mountaineer has studied those diagrams in Freedom of the Hills that show how sitting under an overhang may result in your becoming a conductor for the ground currents resulting from a strike. Sitting under an overhang that happens to be located in a vertical crack or gully system where water may create a conduit, or sitting under an overhang anywhere near a summit, pinnacle, shoulder, or ridge crest may not be a good idea.

I grew up in ice skating country and what I observed there and what has proven true here in the warm Pacific Northwest as well is that the ice on a lake is pretty much always uniformly thick unless there is current somewhere or there is a shallow area or underwater object (which creates a small shallow area). On lakes in the mountains, this almost always means that the weak areas are at the inlet and outlet, and (often in the Spring) all the way around the outside edge. If you can get onto the ice, the prospect of falling in is generally pretty slim though I suppose there could be the unseen shallow or unrecognized inlet stream.

And he took one of the coolest pictures that pops up on the front page of this board! That shot of Mike on Damnation is great. Ja Erik.

Center of the action? I believe Ballard is the "center of the universe" now that Fremont has been taken over by Adobe and Weyerhauser.

According to Rat, on 1/22: "There isn't much in the way of pure ice climbing to be had as of the last few days---drury/pencil still out, hidden lake routes forming but have holes, and other popular areas like hubba hubba/the smear are real thin. plenty of mixed routes for you dry-toolers out there but expect more snow than ice in the combo. " [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

Favorite climb? White Dream, on the south face of Mount Cook, New Zealand. Favorite climber? Bill Pilling. Always wanted to do that climb? The Shield (yo, Strickland).

So - where were you guys? I drove through speed traps and sleet to get to Monroe, and found the door marked by a Peavey. Inside was the stone grave, where a dead guy was buried beneath the floor. This was the place! I scanned the bar for climbers, and saw some unlikely looking prospects talking to the bartender, two couples in their forties, with the guys wearing logger shirts and their gals sporting top-heavy hairdos. I haven't seen Fred Grafton for fifteen years, but these guys looked as if they've been smoking and drinking heavily for a few years - could his health have deteriorated so that I don't even recognize him anymore? Might one of them be the CrazyJZ guy? The music was playing so loud I could barely here myself think, and I couldn't hear what they were saying but through sign language they assured me they were not climbers (I think one of them said he had climbed a tree once). I didn't bother to check on the two guys playing pool and dancing to the beat of Guns ‘n Roses, or the three young pool hustlers at the next table - barely 21, with spaghetti noodles for arms, and leather jackets hung on their chairs. After a while, ChrisW showed up and so did Bronco. We retired to a table as far away as possible from the speakers and talked about climbing. Mt. Rainier, Darrington, Index Town Wall, self-belay techniques, and the mystery of just what it is that makes Caveman tick were among the topics (on this last point, we discovered that Cavey had on different occasions cornered all three of us with his "when can you go to Mount Terror - I want to climb that thing - I want to go with you" routine). We agreed that tied-off ice screws stuck into snow do not make good belay anchors. We talked about the atmospheric pressure at 20,320 feet in Alaska. Pub Club made to Monroe and where were you guys? [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

Dan e -Yes, I would and in fact, I did. To give you some background, I should say that I do have a fair amount of alpine climbing experience, but I am not a great ice climber and I don't think I had been on ANY ice for a couple of years when I climbed the route. I do not mean to trivialize the climb -- indeed, my comments above were based in part on my belief that many of the accidents that happen on Liberty Ridge occur because those attempting the route don't take it serious enough. The Carbon glacier is probably one of the most serious glaciers in Washington for crevasse hazards, and the ridge itself is steep for the entire 6,000 feet from the glacier to liberty Cap. Rocks roll, pieces of ice fall down ... In my opinion, climbers should not try Liberty Ridge unless they are both fit AND comfortable with the terrain. The more time you spend in harm's way, the more likely you are to get hit by something and if you are belaying because you aren't completely confident on 35 degree ice, it will take a long time to complete the climb. Also, if you have a full pack and are banking on "carrying over," you may be tempted to dig in and wait it out if the weather begins to deteriorate. In such an event, I'd rather retreat -- with a day pack it took me an hour and a half to descend from Liberty Cap to Thumb Rock, and that would be a much better place to wait out a storm than up at the top of the route – unless maybe you are planning on getting picked up by a helicopter. Good luck with a winter climb. It would certainly be exciting and, in the right conditions, it might even prove easier than a summer ascent. Maybe you'll be be lucky enough to find the glacier filled in and styrofoam snow from bottom to top.-Matt

Anybody from Seattle N. End? Send me a p.m.

Maybe you'll be be lucky enough to find the glacier filled in and styrofoam snow from bottom to top. And may the sky be blue and the wind still. [ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

Icegirl - Smith has some very good, if not excellent, moderate climbs. Many are "trad" but there are plenty of them and they tend to be less crowded than the sport climbs. Don't let your "friends" fool you. -Matt