What should be allowed in a "route report" discuss

[dberdinka]

First off, if this website was visited only by individuals like me (quasi-lurkers) if would lack a lot of the entertainment value it currently has. On the other hand it is slowly sinking under the weight of pointless, indiscriminate posting. This thread being a perfect example! You can argue that it's all just for fun, but read through this thing again. Mattp begins with a very well articulated post trying to start an actual discussion on how this resource should be managed. In return maybe 1 in 15 posts has anything of relevance to say, much less anything witty or intelligent. "Blow me, tool" just doesn't qualify.

 

(Maybe it should have been posted somewhere other than in Spray?)

 

Personally I like the idea that some part of this website could actually be dedicated to the discussion of climbing, rather than a place to fire off one more knee-jerk moronic post. So I'm all for active moderation (i.e. delete ALL the bullshit) of posts in the trip report section. Do it enough and eventually the drivel will end up where it belongs.

 

People can scream censorship, but you can still post whatever you want, you'd just have to do it in the appropriate place.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Moderators only seem to delete or use censorshit (for darin's vocab) when it's a subject or comment that matters to them.

[minx]

caveman- is this your site? no? then it's not your decision, you're lucky they're even considering your opinion. back off...some of these threads could use some censoring. if you think it's directed at you then perhaps you should reconsider what you post. if you think it's only about topics they care about it..so be it. Such is the whimsical nature of site moderators. they are human.

 

Leave the spray unsensored i guess but that's it.

[chucK]

In my opinion-

it should be done right by either no censorshit (sp??) or if you are going to censor it then remove all spray that is not in the spray category. Not just what you see fit sometimes.

 

That'd be fine by me if this (removing all spray) got done in the Route reports section. The problem is, there is so much BS that it would be a neverending timesink. Plus, no matter what policy you had there would always be areas of gray. You'll still have to decide if the post needs to deal only with route in question, the people involved, anyone who's ever climbed it, similar routes, similar rating schemes, blah blah.

 

If you wanna try that (in the route reports section only), I think that would be great, but I just think you'd be setting yourself up for a lot of work if you were to do it properly. Of course, once the hard line was enforced and became known, perhaps the volume of BS would go down and the workload would ease.

[fern]

but if it looks like it is going to deterioriate to a whole page of B.S. that is unrelated to

the route being discussed, and particularly if that includes calling each other asseyes and buttnuggets, it is time to step in.

 

I think you are misrepresenting the content of the exchange that you initially erased. Too bad it isn't there anymore for others to make their own decision about whether it 'crossed the line'.

[mattp]

Greg-

I've tried that "take it to spray" message several times. It was respected about one out of four attempts. Jon has said he is committed to continuing to provide a place for spray, but that he also wants to see some fundamental rules of restraint practiced in some of the forums: keep spray out of the route reports, keep flames out of the newbies forum, etc.

 

I agree that erasing posts SUCKS. How about shutting down threads? Does that SUCK too?

 

Nobody has yet discussed my statement that the definitions of what are to be inserted into route report threads appear pretty clear. What do you think -- is it clear enough what is to be tolerated there?

 

Do we need a detailed outline of what words constitute intolerable insults, kind of like the 7 forbidden words on radio?

 

Do we need to have a description of just exactly how many lines of banter unrelated to the route discussion are acceptable?

 

Should we take either an all-or-nothing appraoch to moderating the board?

[Dru]

or jumped the shark...

 

i will say again, moderate with style, brilliance and panache, not with "random acts of moderation". or else it looks like there is a vendetta and moderation is being applied to some but not to all...

[Cpt.Caveman]

shut up minx your comments try to make a point but get lost in the sauce.. Read the comments about making this public on like page one.

 

It's ok to bash on people anywhere but in route reports

 

I can go over and call people buttnuggets or dingleberries anywhere else is what you are saying matt? What are you saying?

 

Yeah you can nitpick all you want. So can I and that was the point of some things people seem to reply with. Check this post out here it's still alive http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB13&Number=125175&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

 

Tell me why it never got censorshited? I think we all know why... It's great my friend created a website and idiots want to talk shit about it being hacked out according to the moderators

 

 

 

[sk]

I honestly think that unless some one complains about being called asseyes all is well in the world.

 

Minx this is not mattp's site either. or yours. it is jon and tims and this is a never ending debate that I understand has been going on since the begining of the bbs.

 

If you are going to censor why not take out all of the totaly boring and mundane trip reports.

[mattp]

Fern-

 

I will acknowledge -- for at least the third time -- that I may have misunderstood the discussion on Friday and that I may not have skillfully drawn the line. Had I saved the initial posts that I cut, though, I believe you would see that Caveman did in fact tell Dru to fuck off and the word Buttnugget or a similar insult was used, and that there were a couple of replies in kind. You apparently don't find those kinds of posts inappropriate in that forum, and I have tried in this thread to discuss that very point. I have also tried to explain what I sought to do, and apparently you reject that explanation.

 

Rather than repeat how unfair I was, might you explain how you think I might not misstep so badly again? Do you think there should be any moderation in the route reports forum? Are you in the all-or-nothing camp or do you think there should be some flexibility? If there is to be moderation of any posts, how should it be done?-Matt

[chucK]

Nobody has yet discussed my statement that the definitions of what are to be inserted into route report threads appear pretty clear. What do you think -- is it clear enough what is to be tolerated there?

Maybe you could state it again?

 

Do we need a detailed outline of what words constitute intolerable insults, kind of like the 7 forbidden words on radio?

 

Do we need to have a description of just exactly how many lines of banter unrelated to the route discussion are acceptable?

 

No amount of detail will help. There are enough clever sprayers on this board that could easily pervert any clearly defined rule to license to spray. You should clearly present guidelines (that I must have missed before, so maybe they weren't that clear ) then adjudicate.

 

Learn to live with people bitching and give them a fair chance to respond respectfully (to the moderation efforts).

Edited January 21, 2003 by chucK

[mattp]

Ray - I agree with you that that thread in the "personal web pages" section is B.S. and should be shipped to spray.

 

As to whether you can slam anybody in any forum other than route reports, I think you will find that there are broader tolerances in some areas of the board than others, but even in spray there is a limit. Jon has said repeatedly that certain kinds of gay bashing, talk of sex with children, and threats of violence will not be allowed anywhere on the board. I am sure there are some other highly offensive things you could think of that would similarly not be allowed.

 

I have tried to set forth what I see as a clarification of the simple introductory defnition for the "route reports" forums and To The Top has set forth a similar clarification, in the "Access" thread that Sisu started. That thread was originally on the Climber's Board, so that may give you some guidance as to what may be allowed in the Climber's Board forum.

[mattp]

"Route Reports" should be focused on actual outings, or things like conditions or the history of a route, or what kind of gear is needed for a particular climb; if you want to digress into an argument over somebody's character or something unrelated to climbing, and particularly if that digression is going to continue for more than a post or two, take it to another section of the board.

---

The introduction for the "Route Reports" sections all say "post your reports and ask questions about routes." This does not suggest the discussions cannot be funny or entertaining and there is no rule that says you cannot be irreverent or that you cannot argue with something that is posted there. There is also no rule against providing or seeking some good information.

---

This forum includes discussions of the routes themselves, trail and snow conditions, crowds, gear needed, retreat possibilities, rescue operations, historical information, and things that took place on any given outing.

---

it should be obvious that if you want to dive into personal attacks and calling people dickneck and stuff like that, or if you want to steer the discussion into something completely unrelated to climbing for more than a relatively short digression, you simply move over to the "Spray" section.

 

Clear as mud?

[jon]

Hey check it out folks. All we are asking is to keep the spray out of the route reports, and places like newbies. We have dedicated a whole forum, called "spray", for you to talk about whatever you want almost completely unhindered (within reason). You can cry foul but let me assure you that I am accomodating you much more then I would like. Which leads into my second point.

 

Matt has taken the time to discuss with you how the route report should be moderated. A few of you thinking you speak for the majority have said how you feel. Matt is a nice guy and has responded to all of you criticisms. Myself, I am not a nice guy. I may seem nice in person, but I'm not. You can cry foul, you can call me names, you can tell me how much this website sucks. But guess what? I don't give a shit. If you don't like how we do things here I'm presenting an incredible option for you. Go find another website. There are plenty others out there, I'm sure they'd be more then happy to see you.

 

We aren't asking anything absurd here, it's quite simple, please refrain from spraying in the route reporting section, if you do, you'll find your post gone. Pretty simple.

[sk]

is there a way in the route report section (Timm@Y) where a poster could lock there own thred if they feard some kind of verbal atack???

 

that way people who have thick skin can enjoy the sillieness and those who do not can avoid getting there feelers hurt

 

(I hate it when you all ignore me when i am being sort of serious )

[Greg_W]

Myself, I am not a nice guy. I may seem nice in person, but I'm not.

 

He's right, he's not. I've seen him berrate a woman with young children for getting a shopping cart too close to his precious Subaru, threatening them with a baquette and nearly spilling his grande Chai tea.

[chucK]

(I hate it when you all ignore me when i am being sort of serious )

I think you hate it when people ignore you.

[mattp]

Sorry you feel neglected, Muff.

Jon has said before, and I agree, that the route reports section is intended to be a resource that can be used by people who don't want to have to wade through copious amounts of gratuitous insult and off-topic B.S. If Jon and Tim set it up as you suggest, those who entertain themselves with spray would be free to do so in that forum and history has shown that pretty soon the entire forum would be taken over by spray any time the weather is bad.

 

I should also tell you that there have been private discussions about how maybe even allowing any follow-up discussion should be eliminated from the "route reports" forum so that if you had questions or comments, you would have to fire off a personal message or start a separate thread in a different forum. I am not in favor of this, but it would certainly eliminate the need for there to be much moderating in that forum.

[Greg_W]

(I hate it when you all ignore me when i am being sort of serious )

I think you hate it when people ignore you.

 

She's female (I think, we've never met ), that's a given.

[Off_White]

Yeah you can nitpick all you want. So can I and that was the point of some things people seem to reply with. Check this post out here it's still alive http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB13&Number=125175&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1Tell me why it never got censorshited? I think we all know why... It's great my friend created a website and idiots want to talk shit about it being hacked out according to the moderators

Caveman: Neither Mattp nor I are moderators of the usually quiet Personal Web Page forum. If you wanted some action taken, you should use the "notify moderator" function, which will send an email to the moderator of that forum. Particularly in a slow moving forum, no one is paying very close attention.Had this thread been in the Climbers Board, I'd have moved it to Spray where the level of insult would be quite unremarkable. Was the degree of spray levelled at Alpinelite and you any worse than what Mountainwerks and MVS got in the Mt Persis thread in Alpine Lakes? I don't think so, and that thread was not edited. (No longer specifically addressing Caveman's question) Where the "move the thread to Spray" ploy fails is when you have a substantive topic with useful information that gets overrun with page after page of MOS syndrome. Its a drag to have spray always trump real information. Thats when deleting posts (sure, call it censorshit) make sense, rather than having the same dozen personalities always reduce every topic to drivel. Then it comes down to the action deemed appropriate by a single moderator, though sometimes it gets discussed in the moderator forum. If you've got a problem with how a moderator handles a forum, complain to Jon or Tim (sorry guys) and if they agree they remove that moderator or give some kind of a warning. Part of the whole point in having moderators is so that Tim and Jon don't have to pay attention to all the petty crap on a daily basis, so as administrators they delegate some of their authority to people they think might manage the board in ways they would find acceptable. No doubt about it, I wouldn't find this board as interesting without the spectrum of fierce personalities that inhabit this place, but I also value the range of other folk who post here, from David Whitelaw to Colin to Don Serl: folks who never spray but have much to offer, as well as people new to the game and looking for information and experience. I think its important that everyone has a place on this board, which is why spray should stay in Spray.Thats not to say that banter and conversation don't belong in Trip Reports, its the stuff exchanged in dialogue that makes Trip Reports here so much more useful and entertaining than the more arid postings to be found at Summitpost or Bivouac (not intended as an insult to those boards).Anyway, enough babble from me. I'll leave you with a poll:

Is CC.com a democracy?No

[Cpt.Caveman]

Caveman: Neither Mattp nor I are moderators of the usually quiet Personal Web Page forum. If you wanted some action taken, you should use the "notify moderator" function, which will send an email to the moderator of that forum. Particularly in a slow moving forum, no one is paying very close attention.

 

Had this thread been in the Climbers Board, I'd have moved it to Spray where the level of insult would be quite unremarkable. Was the degree of spray levelled at Alpinelite and you any worse than what Mountainwerks and MVS got in the Mt Persis thread in Alpine Lakes? I don't think so, and that thread was not edited.

 

I only went there after Guest aka mvs tried to pile on top of shit he did not know about.

[sk]

ya so what I do HATE TO BE IGNORED

 

thank you matt I thought I had read something about locking the forum in the past. In ways I agree with you. and I rearely spray out side of spray and the Cimbers Board. This is just sticky. I don't think any one wants it to be boring here. I think we all enjoy what it is we seek here, or we woul;d not come back.

 

 

And I am sure I find boring trip reports as offensive as somne other people find spray...

 

you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. As moderatores you have to do what you believe to be right. I think that Caveys thred should be left on personal climbing pages and the offensive posts deleted. Fare is fare

[Cpt.Caveman]

whatever I'm back to spray. Time to enlist some new avatars

[mattp]

This censorship business is going to be hard work if in addition to cleaning up the Chair Peak thread I also have to go back and cut the crap out of the Mt. Persis thread and somebody else is going to have to go after the Personal Web Pages. I think I'll go have lunch instead.

[Off_White]

I think that Caveys thred should be left on personal climbing pages and the offensive posts deleted. Fare is fare

 

Small niggling detail: The thread was started by Bronco, about a website run by MikeAdam. The thread is only Cavey's by virtue of his defense of his friend's website.