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Peter_Puget

Teachers Strike

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I was thinking of the strike as a "strike" whether it was illegal and to a lesser extent to myself how these two factor would effect my view of my teachers - especially those who were sticklers for following the rules.

 

Jim got me thinking of other things. For example complaints about school funding. I think schools have had increases in real spending and the link to student performance is almost nonexistent.

 

Here a study published a decade ago. It doesnt study school funding but it does offer some interesting conclusions. Check out table three.

 

In particular after controlling for family and child background, time in school and studying barely helped student performance.

 

 

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/73393/j.1741-3737.2001.00295?sequence=1

 

 

 

 

Edited by Peter_Puget

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Jim, are you using x1.5 for plus forty/week, or plus 8/day? Either way,that's pretty easy take-home math--and it doesn't help your argument that teachers are underpaid.

 

I like your points about the MEd softball, though. Spot on.

 

To answer the first question - I based in on what she generally puts in, which is 11-12 hrs every day during the week, and ignore the times when it is more, and count the minimum of 8 hrs put in every weekend - again, that's minimum not average.

 

I never made the argument that teachers are underpaid - my statement is that trying to make the case that they are over paid given the hours they put in is bullshit. Sure, she could make twice the money working in her field - but that's not the point. She's a great science teacher and cares that her kids learn, she is not alone, and deserves every cent she earns.

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I'm on your side more than you realize. My point is that a teacher with her credentials and experience would fare far better with a salary dictated by supply and demand. Why does the teachers' union hate good, well-qualified teachers?

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Though my spouse and her teacher colleagues don't seem to care much about the union one way or another, they've seen some shitty administrators who get a bug up their butt about some teacher, and without union protection they could just be let go. Add on the increasing emphasis of test scores in evaluations despite the roulette of who you get in the class, family background, number of Ausberger kids, ESL kids, and just general capability - and I could see why a union helps.

 

The opposite side is true as well - there's a small minority that should just move on out of the field as they are lousy teachers.

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Assuming your definitions are correct you are rally creating a disctinction without a difference. The "Republicans" seem to be consistently outvoted by the "Democrats." THe union doesn't reflect their views and they are often compelled by law to help fund the union.

not true, for several reasons:

 

1. no one has to be part of the union if they don't want to, they can "opt out" - my district has several "agency fee payers" who pay no dues, but do have to pay a yearly fee for the contract negotiation we do on their behalf

 

2.most of what a local union does is non-political (at least as it is commonly understood) - we negotiate a contract - we oversee the implementation of the contract - we deal with issues between members and management - we run a scholarship program for kids - we have social events - we put on professional trainings

 

3. the political part of the union (called WEA-PAC) is an "opt in" situation - this is the part that hires lobbyists, puts out political ads, interviews candidates for elections, and issues recommendations to voters on how to vote - folks who don't to be in the union at all don't pay for the politics part - members who don't want to be involved politically don't pay - just members who choose to be involved are part of WEA-PAC (about 75% of my 400 members)

 

 

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Why does the teachers' union hate good, well-qualified teachers?

what does that even mean?

 

as a union leader, I have zero interest in defending shitty teachers - said teachers generally speaking do things which come with consequences I couldn't "save" them from even if I wanted to - not showing up to work, showing up wasted, touching or tormenting the kids, not co-operating with evaluation, working w/ colleagues, actually grading papers, etc. etc. - when members do these things, everybody wants them to go away

 

as jim says, the union's in large part present to protect us from the capricious behavior of administrators, whose preferred solution to many problems is simply to get rid of everybody around them.

 

also agree w/ jim on/ his analysis of teachers interest in unionism - it's extremely similar to their willingness to participate in any other political activity at any other level - the majority of the membership is apathetic and self-obsessed, which is understandable as that's just how the human-monkey seems to roll - like any political community, they tend to need some combination of fear and anger to move at all :)

 

I find most members don't care about the union until they've needed it, and then they're suddenly very appreciative - not unlike folks who are indifferent to the police until the wolves are at the door :)

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Though my spouse and her teacher colleagues don't seem to care much about the union one way or another, they've seen some shitty administrators who get a bug up their butt about some teacher, and without union protection they could just be let go.

 

This is the world the rest of us live in. Employment at will. Outside of age, race, gender, there are minimal protections against a-hole managers. And yes, they're out there. Still, why do teachers think they are somehow above being evaluated?

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Why does the teachers' union hate good, well-qualified teachers?

what does that even mean?

 

Classic, Fairweather, hyperbole...

 

Good on ya for pitching in with your Union Ivan.

 

d

 

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Still, why do teachers think they are somehow above being evaluated?

 

Reel it in dude. No one said anything approaching that.

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A republican system is not the same as representative councils. A republican government is one in which the political authority comes from the people. You seem to be refering to a representative government wich is a form of democratic approach.

 

I admit to being bewildered by your distinctions.

 

in pure democracies all questions are resolved by a vote of the entire citizenry. this obviously is a pain in the ass for most day to day decisions, but truly important for major life-or-death type one.

 

in pure republics every X number of people get a representative who goes and makes decisions in their name - they make those decisions as part of a deliberative body which go by a wide variety of names: town councils, legislatures, assemblies, parliaments, dumas, congresses, rep councils, ad nauseam

 

in both systems, to quote Jefferson, "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" - that is, all governments derive their authority to rule from the willingness of the people to be ruled - this Jeffersonian ideal operates irrespective of the form of government: monarchy, communist, plutarchy, theocracy, etc.

 

my union's form of government is like that of our nation - it mostly uses republican (representative) approaches to resolving problems, but does occasionally call for all members to get involved (to approve contracts and labor actions for example)

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Though my spouse and her teacher colleagues don't seem to care much about the union one way or another, they've seen some shitty administrators who get a bug up their butt about some teacher, and without union protection they could just be let go.

 

This is the world the rest of us live in. Employment at will. Outside of age, race, gender, there are minimal protections against a-hole managers. And yes, they're out there. Still, why do teachers think they are somehow above being evaluated?

 

schooled!

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Still, why do teachers think they are somehow above being evaluated?

 

Reel it in dude. No one said anything approaching that.

 

You need to catch up with the conversation. My advice - scroll upwards.

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THANKS OBAMA!!! :lmao: (I crack myself up sometimes)

 

Guess our Senior has one more day to endure:

 

MUKILTEO TEACHERS TO HOLD ONE-DAY WALKOUT ON MAY 20.

 

Members of the Mukilteo Education Association (MEA), the union that represents teachers who are employed by the Mukilteo School District, have voted to participate in a one-day walkout on Wednesday, May 20. With the walkout, classes in all Mukilteo schools will be canceled on that day.

 

Union leadership has emphasized with school district officials that their action is not a strike against the school district or its students, families or the community. They explain that their action is being done as a way for staff to show solidarity with their colleagues across the state and to send a message to the state legislature about the importance of adequate funding for education.

 

Although all classes will be canceled on Wednesday, May 20 as a result of the teacher walkout, some activities will proceed as scheduled. Classes at the Sno-Isle Tech Skills Center and at the Early Childhood Education Assistance Program (ECEAP) will continue as scheduled. Transportation to out-of-district programs also will be available as usual.

 

Due to the one-day walkout on May 20, the missed day of school will be added to the end of the school year. As a result, the previously scheduled last day, Thursday, June 11, will become a full day of school rather than an early-dismissal day. The final day of school will occur on Friday, June 12, which will be an early-dismissal day.

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I like how certain folks argue with a history teacher about civics and union issues. what qualifications does one have to argue with someone who is infinitely more knowledgable about these things? Only one thing......an inflated head.

 

Certain folks would do much better to not believe they know everything and instead honestly listen to what others say. But listening (without the sole purpose of knee jerk reaction of already determined beliefs) is a skill in short supply in Spray. Plenty of smarts but little listening skillz.

 

Good for you Ivan with your union stewardship. It is appreciated by parents who value their kids education and people who value a educated society.

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I like how certain folks argue with a history teacher about civics and union issues. what qualifications does one have to argue with someone who is infinitely more knowledgable about these things? Only one thing......an inflated head.

 

Certain folks would do much better to not believe they know everything and instead honestly listen to what others say. But listening (without the sole purpose of knee jerk reaction of already determined beliefs) is a skill in short supply in Spray. Plenty of smarts but little listening skillz.

 

Good for you Ivan with your union stewardship. It is appreciated by parents who value their kids education and people who value a educated society.

 

Persecution complex. Gene, you really need to work that in next time...

 

d

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out of curiosity, those who are hot for "supply and demand" pay for public school teachers and evaluations based on kids test scores, how do you want other public servants to be judged? should cops be judged on how many tickets they write? how often the tickets they do write get paid? should fire-fighters be paid by how many fires they put out? do conservatives really want irs agents to be fired if they don't catch a certain # of tax-cheats?

 

my point is that public servants aren't exactly pumping out widgets - they're not owned by scrooge mcduck for his personal financial well-being - our task is a rather broad, grand and often nebulous one: to shepherd every kid the community throws into the hopper into adulthood with hopefully a chance at long-term happiness in life

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thanks for the kind words there gene, but to play politician for a minute (and in deference to me math colleagues), i should concede i ain't "infinitely more knowledgeable" about anything :)

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out of curiosity, those who are hot for "supply and demand" pay for public school teachers and evaluations based on kids test scores, how do you want other public servants to be judged? should cops be judged on how many tickets they write? how often the tickets they do write get paid? should fire-fighters be paid by how many fires they put out? do conservatives really want irs agents to be fired if they don't catch a certain # of tax-cheats?

 

you don't get the point...the point is to pound the square peg through the round hole. if it doesn't fit, then its Unamerican.

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out of curiosity, those who are hot for "supply and demand" pay for public school teachers and evaluations based on kids test scores, how do you want other public servants to be judged? should cops be judged on how many tickets they write? how often the tickets they do write get paid? should fire-fighters be paid by how many fires they put out? do conservatives really want irs agents to be fired if they don't catch a certain # of tax-cheats?

 

my point is that public servants aren't exactly pumping out widgets - they're not owned by scrooge mcduck for his personal financial well-being - our task is a rather broad, grand and often nebulous one: to shepherd every kid the community throws into the hopper into adulthood with hopefully a chance at long-term happiness in life

 

And how's that going? In aggregate, I mean.

 

As for your police, fire, IRS comp, well, gimme a break--and leave it to a lib to come up with a straw-man. Like all employees, they (and you) should be judged by a combination of results and the effort they put forth--as judged by their supervisor(s) and, in most cases, their peers.

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leave it to a lib to come up with a straw-man.

 

what makes this come off like something out of Idiocracy? Like out the toilet?

 

 

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It seems that the implied objection to teachers' salaries is that they've got it too good. We all remember those carefree days of summer vacation, and some resent the perception that teachers get to spend ten weeks doing jack while getting paid a fair wage. And that comes out of our stolen tax money. The horror.

 

Add to that the fact that kids fail to measure up to the high standards we all grew up with, and it appears that teachers aren't even doing a very good job while taking home all of those sweet tax dollars. Never mind that the raw materials; kids with many challenges that aren't their fault (Have you looked at the public school demographics lately?), mainstreaming of learning challenged children, unmanageably large classes, etc, and it's nary impossible for even great teachers to consistently meet performance goals.

 

It's a tough job with a high burn out rate, and begrudging someone making a pretty good living at it is petty and selfish. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet; consider the value that society derives from the collective effort of our teachers. Beat them down, make it a less attractive profession, lower the quality of those who stick with it, degrade public school education, and see how well plays out in terms of social and economic health of the nation. Jeez.

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Sorry man, don't mean to neg. But I suppose it happens all around. Just feel like Ivan wasn't being negative at all and you have to bring that? Why do you have to do that?

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