Ferguson in Context

[Fairweather]

It is. You miss the point. Cuz yer slow.

[genepires]

just cause one is old enough to serve in the military does not mean that same person is an adult. Old enough to die for country yes....adult maybe....maybe not.

 

As a person who joined right after HS myself, I have a little experience with immature military personnel. (self included in that crowd)

[CWC01]

Maybe police can starting doing field checks for maturity.

[tvashtarkatena]

maybe you can forward that suggestion to Brown's family.

[Jim]

Well, this dialog is a pretty good example of the cross-talking evident on almost any website discussing the topic. Likely a by-product of the media - but I've found more realistic discussions among the races in person.

 

To not recognize that the young adult attacked a police officer --- or that there could have been options for the police officer once he exited the vehicle is just continuing down the same trench.

 

I worked with a guy from west Texas for a bit. He said there was a desolate stretch of dirt road where he lived with a sign that said -- Choose your rut wisely -- you'll be in it for the next 30 miles.

 

But please continue.

[ivan]

is it possible to un-poison a well? our national original sin sure seems unshakeable. the founders may have been demi-gods, but they certainly never squared that circle.

[tvashtarkatena]

pontification is also a common feature of web discussions. as are unearned assumptions of expertise and experience.

[ivan]

on the contrary, i have great experience w/ them that lack expertise

[JayB]

i've lost the premise of the original poster - what is the proper context for fergouson? post-racial america or post-post racial america?

 

the boston massacre, rightly considered, probably wasn't spectacular evidence of england run amok, yet nonetheless it touched a nerve that was truly exposed and was thus an integral agent of all that followed after - likewise this poor sad dumb dead kid was likely in the wrong, but the cause of his banner-bearers is still not baseless

 

Let's assume that you agree with their cause, and that discussion is off of the table. What is the tangible effect of this crusade (and is there anyone who isn't in the prime demo for intravenous Levitra or high dose hormone-replacement therapy who can recall a time when lots of Very Upset People marching and chanting had any discernable effect on any tangible social reality whatsoever?)going to be, in your estimation?

[Sam Furley]

I really think they ought to put this Officer Wilson guy on trial just so we can all watch him get acquitted and get some of these whiners to shut their dang pie holes once and for all. The man would not be found guilty in a court of law - guaranteed. You know what, scratch all that because the same people would be whining even louder about the next issue du jour. Keep on talking loud, you aren't convincing anybody and are most likely turning people against you by being so dense.

[ivan]

What is the tangible effect of this crusade ... going to be, in your estimation?

if i could see the future i probably wouldn't be working anymore

 

who knows? what bostonian knew in 1770 that the violent incident they'd just witnessed would result in a such a sea-change 5 years later? certainly many of those folks yelling in the street today would hope, as did the sons of liberty, for a radical change in the status quo. obviously, like the said sons, there's those among them willing to do more than just shout.

 

playing the odds though, i imagine this incident will be just another drop in the ocean and that the Next Big Thing, as sam says, will yank the public's attention elsewhere, leaving hte whole thing to brew and fester and molder some more. if the incident does no more than encourage the cop body-camera craze, i suppose that's at least something positive.

[Buckshot]

I was a cop for six years (Mattawa, WA is a ghetto) and I learned this:

If someone takes a police officer's gun there is an 85% chance he will use it to kill that officer, therefore someone goes for my gun = I shoot them, not in the leg, like in the movies, not to kill them either but until they are no longer a threat. Unarmed??? BULL! In every confrontation between a cop and civilian there is at least one weapon involved; the officer's. M Brown tried to use Wilson's gun to kill him. Even if he was unarmed, which we have established was only partly correct, an unarmed person is COMPLETELY capable of killing ANY OF YOU. Put away your white guilt and look at the evidence, its easy. The problem isn't white cops killing black men, its black men killing each other. Brown should have been shot for robbing the store, instead he was shot for trying to kill a cop. SO WHAT?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Buckshot

[Fairweather]

pontification is also a common feature of web discussions. as are unearned assumptions of expertise and experience.

 

IRonY aLErt. ThIs iS noT a dRilL.

[tvashtarkatena]

Not you, Big Man. You probably know more about teenagers than the rest of this site combined.

 

Buckshot's ready to put an ALL CAP in yo ass.

 

I've been to Mattawa a few times (pop 4500). Right out of Steinbeck - the Spanish translation. 'ghetto' might be a bit of an overstatement. There's not enough Mattawa for that designation, it seems.

 

The 'he got what he deserved' sentiment here is palpable. Strangely, I don't share it. I find it disgusting.

 

At first I thought that people were missing the larger mark - our highly discriminatory criminal justice system. But now I realize that the folks here simply use the same sentiment to justify that - 'they're getting what they deserve'.

 

Nothing new under the sun in these United States.

[Buckshot]

Actually Mattawa used to have the highest per capita murder rate in America

[tvashtarkatena]

Prove it web jockey.

 

Or not. Not is good.

 

More to the point, what was your personal experience there that proved so compelling? Do you believe Brown 'got what he deserved'? Did the cop have to shoot him six + times, well after his gun was allegedly threatened (that is certainly in question), to protect himself? Do you belief the cop could have responded in a non lethal manner just as effectively? And finally, did you personally witness the event? If not, what justifies your certainty of opinion?

[Sam Furley]

Hey, YOU in the perpetual state of confusion ^^. Yeah, you.

 

Did you not listen to what Buckshot said? He said, "Even if he was unarmed, which we have established was only partly correct, an unarmed person is COMPLETELY capable of killing ANY OF YOU".

 

So I know it's difficult, but put on your thinking cap and listening ears for a second. Put yourself in the officer's shoes. If you use anything less than stopping force on someone and YOU have a gun and YOU are tasked with stopping that individual who has already disobeyed orders to stop, made threatening gestures, and (as the eyewitness accounts corroborate) made his way back towards the officers, what's to say that's going to be enough to prevent this perpetrator (who has already displayed numerous signs of aggression and unwillingness to cooperate) from taking your gun away from you and shooting you? Do you want to be the one to take that chance? It's easy for you to sit back behind your keyboard with a joint hanging from your lip, scratching your nuts, and speculating and talking out the side of your mouth on something in retrospect. When you have nanoseconds to think in order to save your own ass, you would have done the same thing as Officer Wilson did. In fact you, sir, are the web jockey and putting that (and all your other personal shortcomings) on others only reinforces what people already know about you.

 

This is not a race issue and anyone that has one iota of critical thinking skills will have no trouble grasping this concept. I'm sorry if you're not one of them.

 

[Pete_H]

Seems pretty self-evident and common sense to me. It's been explained numerous times in this thread. I'm not sure why tvash doesn't get it. Too much of an ideologue, I guess. In his eyes, a criminal who is a minority is always the victim.

[Sam Furley]

Some people are afflicted with a combination of stubbornness, NPD, and complete ignorance and while we can't really help them (as much as we'd like to), we can help expose their flaws in thinking to the rest of society who also don't get it.

 

I like how some of the folks on this thread hurl insults that reflect exactly what everyone else already knows about THEM. Blissful ignorance? Indifference? Confusion? Douchenozzlery? YEP.

[tvashtarkatena]

Just thinking about the poor kid's family is all. And all the poor kids like him.

 

Not complicated. And not at all ideological. But then, only the Big Man here's got a clue as to who I am, so I don't expect accuracy.

 

And I know full well how conflicting testimony and rigged legal proceeding can go, so pardon my healthy skepticism and willingness to entertain doubt. I also understand what the armchair web jockey hormone does to a brain. Or an innernut dogpile of salt licking brains, as it were.

 

 

[Sam Furley]

I've got to say, you are THE best at putting your own shortcomings onto others by way of [oft-veiled] insults. It takes a village [idiot].

[Pete_H]

Just thinking about the poor kid's family is all. And all the poor kids like him.

 

Fair enough. But I think it's counterproductive and naive to fail to acknowledge Michael Brown's culpability in his own killing.

 

I think Ivan hit the nail on the head when he said there is entrenched racism in the country, this just wasn't an example of it here.

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, you don't really know what role Wilson's attitudes towards blacks played here, do you? You don't even know what actually happened. Plus, I haven't failed to acknowledge anything, so there's that.

 

What interests me is the certainty of support for the 'you shoot 'em, of course' solution exhibited here. Where does that come from?

 

The US is the only self described civilized country where such gun violence is not only accepted, but actively celebrated. Why is this?

 

I'm interested in changing that culture, and to that end, I've asked pointed questions here - none of which I expect to be answered, of course (and they haven't been).

 

Such questions invariably lead to lots of assumptions (all of them wrong) about the questioner, along with the usual insults. No surprise there - this is an almost autonomic response to such queries.

 

Regarding this particular incident, it seems possible that Brown reaching for Wilson's gun while he was seated in his cruiser doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, did Wilson really need to riddle this unarmed kid with a hail of bullets to protect himself? Do the posters here consider that 'good policing'? I'm neither anti-cop nor pro black, but I will admit to being anti-shooting-people.

 

But this kind of shooting happens all the time, and there's the rub. In my own home town this past year, a 15 year old kid was shot to death by a cop, and not at close range, for wielding a toy gun.

 

Why does this happen so often in the US, and no where else? How can we change that? It seems many here are comfortable with this status quo.

 

I'm not.

[CWC01]

Well, you don't really know what role Wilson's attitudes towards blacks played here, do you? You don't even know what actually happened. Plus, I haven't failed to acknowledge anything, so there's that.

 

What interests me is the certainty of support for the 'you shoot 'em, of course' solution exhibited here. Where does that come from?

 

The US is the only self described civilized country where such gun violence is not only accepted, but actively celebrated. Why is this?

 

I'm interested in changing that culture, and to that end, I've asked pointed questions here - none of which I expect to be answered, of course (and they haven't been).

 

Such questions invariably lead to lots of assumptions (all of them wrong) about the questioner, along with the usual insults. No surprise there - this is an almost autonomic response to such queries.

 

Regarding this particular incident, it seems possible that Brown reaching for Wilson's gun while he was seated in his cruiser doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, did Wilson really need to riddle this unarmed kid with a hail of bullets to protect himself? Do the posters here consider that 'good policing'? I'm neither anti-cop nor pro black, but I will admit to being anti-shooting-people.

 

But this kind of shooting happens all the time, and there's the rub. In my own home town this past year, a 15 year old kid was shot to death by a cop, and not at close range, for wielding a toy gun.

 

Why does this happen so often in the US, and no where else? How can we change that? It seems many here are comfortable with this status quo.

 

I'm not.

 

The thinly veiled racism of white guilt always strikes me as odd. It's as if you're saying minorities can't chose right from wrong.

 

It's not very hard to figure out who had the largest impact in Mr. Brown's life.

 

[glassgowkiss]

Just thinking about the poor kid's family is all. And all the poor kids like him.

 

Fair enough. But I think it's counterproductive and naive to fail to acknowledge Michael Brown's culpability in his own killing.

 

I think Ivan hit the nail on the head when he said there is entrenched racism in the country, this just wasn't an example of it here.

I understand your reasoning to a certain point during the event. First of all, it started as oral argument and it escalated into a struggle. We will never find out what was said, hence body camera would be a good start to actually document such events, instead on relying on verbal accounts hours or days later. Once wounded in the hand, Brown did not present the same level of threat, hence the decision to single handedly pursue on foot was also probably not the best course of action. Most likely police would be able to apprehend him later, without much fuss.

Also let's do the maths. 3 shots were fired from within the car, one hitting actual target. In all 12 shots were fired, six striking Brown. So after the initial car struggle 9 additional shots were fired, 5 hitting the target, but 4 flying somewhere is a middle of a populated area. I can understand if there was a two sided fire fight, and Brown posed a threat to general public, but looks to me that the officer was completely unnecessary endangering people in the area, by firing a gun in a middle of densely populated part of town.

There are numerous questions regarding incidents like this one. Like I said, cops act with impunity, because they hardly get reprimanded, and never get prosecuted.