Obama and his Lying Issues

[AlpineK]

[JayB]

healthcare should be universal and paid for by government which funds itself through taxes, not premiums to private companies

 

Is this an article of faith or something that you've arrived at by argument (seriously)? E.g. Is this an argument from an abstract/arbitrary notion of fairness, efficiency, superior clinical efficacy, or what?

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

 

What a weird world you've invented in which healthcare is withheld if the illness is "their fault" -- is it lonely over there?

indeed, for a man who fears Big Gubimint micro-managing our freedoms, where do you see the rabbit-hole of deciding which human behaviors deserve coverage or not hits bottom? hot chicks have to pay ten times higher premiums b/c they're 10X more likely to get the clap? no coverage for donut-fans? no covering tendon-pulls nor rectal sores for gay sport climbers?

 

at any rate, the big boozers, bastards, brawlers n' butt-smokers i've known over the years are/were inveterate doctor-haters and don't generally use any of the services they pay for in their youth and usually accept death pretty rapidly when it wanders their way in the form of cancer, heart-failure, etc.

 

 

The alternative to "withholding care" from people who have unhealthy lifestyles or dangerous habits is a system where they pay higher premiums and the state leaves them alone.

 

I'm surprised to learn that you prefer the alternative.

 

And yet those most at risk of health problems associated with unhealthy lifestyles are those least able to bear the costs of higher taxes on cheap food and higher premiums. Somehow other governments have managed to nudge their people in the right direction and enforce more stringent regulations on food without succumbing to your tired stalinototalitarian nightmare fantasy.

 

-Governments are "nudging" poor, stupid people into spending money they can't afford to lose on gambling already in order to maximize the amount of money they make. They're killing off prize-linked savings accounts that would actually "nudge" poor stupid people into saving their money instead of losing it at the scratch-card kiosk because that would cut into their take. That may not be a reality that you choose to acknowledge, but it's reality all the same. Sorry.

 

-Arguing for "more stringent regulations on food" would be defensible from a statist/paternalist perspective if there were sufficient evidence to validate the claim that doing so has any effect whatsoever on health/obesity. There is none, because it doesn't. Ergo any "public health" argument for taxing high-calorie, low-cost food is simply a handy way to dupe a gullible cohort into endorsing higher taxes under the guise of promoting "public health" that will do nothing of the kind.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, governments start unjust wars and hurt kittens, so there's little point in expecting them to do anything to promote the general welfare blah blah blah.

 

Meanwhile, back in realityland, here we sit, after running 2 successful single payer systems within our own country, surrounded by 50 other countries with more efficient, just, and less costly health care system, still trying to 'figure it out.'

 

It's been figured out. Single payer shaves 18 or so % administrative waste off the top, maximizes price bargaining leverage, amortizes health care costs over the largest possible population, makes for a vastly superior patient experience (no, seriously, I really love spending my days arguing with my health insurer over who pays what - great use of everyone's time and energy), takes the health care burden off employers shoulders (job growth - hello?), eliminates the horrible fear of medical bankruptcy that is sadly unique to this country, and...morally tone deaf can stop reading - providing basic health care for all is the right thing to do.

 

Rather than look at how the 'gubment' behaves, let's look specifically how opponents to single payer - and that would be the GOP - are informed - by the Christ Child and Ayn't That Randian Darwinism 2.0 - This Product Contains No Cooperation. Neither has much to do with the real world, but then again neither does this thread, so thas coo.

Edited December 6, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

[Crux]

Oh what a cute dem-o-crat baby! Or is it republi...t?

[tvashtarkatena]

Speaking of babies, FW's already hitting his speed dial for that one.

 

And speaking of babies, you can now get a 3d printout of your ultrasounded fetus. Because sometimes FB photos just aren't enough.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[JayB]

Yeah, governments start unjust wars and hurt kittens, so there's little point in expecting them to do anything to promote the general welfare blah blah blah.

 

Meanwhile, back in realityland, here we sit, after running 2 successful single payer systems within our own country, surrounded by 50 other countries with more efficient, just, and less costly health care system, still trying to 'figure it out.'

 

It's been figured out. Single payer shaves 18 or so % administrative waste off the top, maximizes price bargaining leverage, amortizes health care costs over the largest possible population, makes for a vastly superior patient experience (no, seriously, I really love spending my days arguing with my health insurer over who pays what - great use of everyone's time and energy), takes the health care burden off employers shoulders (job growth - hello?), eliminates the horrible fear of medical bankruptcy that is sadly unique to this country, and...morally tone deaf can stop reading - providing basic health care for all is the right thing to do.

 

Rather than look at how the 'gubment' behaves, let's look specifically how opponents to single payer - and that would be the GOP - are informed - by the Christ Child and Ayn't That Randian Darwinism 2.0 - This Product Contains No Cooperation. Neither has much to do with the real world, but then again neither does this thread, so thas coo.

 

I've seen the laundry list of articles of faith commingled with debatable points and sprinkled with tedious insults before. Yawn.

 

[ivan]

healthcare should be universal and paid for by government which funds itself through taxes, not premiums to private companies

 

Is this an article of faith or something that you've arrived at by argument (seriously)? E.g. Is this an argument from an abstract/arbitrary notion of fairness, efficiency, superior clinical efficacy, or what?

 

faith, what's that? the simple gut-feeling that a thing is right? i'm not a brain in a jar and ultimately any decision i make is an emotional one, it's just a question of how extreme...

 

i love mr spock n' all, but quite a few of them vulcan fellers were flat-out assholes - how many bright phd's helped the nazis, for example?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2013 by ivan

[JasonG]

If we move to a single payer system, we're going to have to keep a close eye on those Russkies.

[prole]

-Arguing for "more stringent regulations on food" would be defensible from a statist/paternalist perspective if there were sufficient evidence to validate the claim that doing so has any effect whatsoever on health/obesity. There is none, because it doesn't. Ergo any "public health" argument for taxing high-calorie, low-cost food is simply a handy way to dupe a gullible cohort into endorsing higher taxes under the guise of promoting "public health" that will do nothing of the kind.

 

 

Dang, where were you during the debate on lead paint? The chemical companies could've used a good flak/hatchet man back in the day.

[olyclimber]

I don't understand why we have to regulate and tax cigarettes so much. Let the free market handle it!

[tvashtarkatena]

The benefits of single payer are debatable...and presenting the evils of the Lotto is a great start.

 

I got nothin'.

[rob]

"And the cool thing about Obamacare is that it’s not only bad for the economy, not only bad for people’s health, it’s also bad for freedom of conscience" -- Rick Santorum

 

(http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/06/rick-santorum-compares-himself-to-nelson-mandela-fighting-against-the-apartheid-of-obamacare/)

[prole]

I don't understand why we have to regulate and tax cigarettes so much. Let the free market handle it!

 

I can't imagine the decline in smoking has anything to do with increased taxation, regulation, restrictions, or paternalist advocacy programs instituted through government. No way, not possible. Also, the number of left wing death-camps in America rose dramatically as a result.

[ivan]

odd, i hear, in america's deathcamps, smokes are used as a form of currency

[Fairweather]

[rob]

I'm convinced that every argument on the planet can be won by randomly selecting a photo of an atrocity

[prole]

 

Execution of a German Communist, Munich, 1919

[ivan]

wow, that's NOT a gap ad?

[Fairweather]

Yes, Prole, and if I recall correctly you once described both Republican Spain and the German Wiemar Republic (est. 1919!) as your political ideals. Who wouldda thought you were so vicious!

Edited December 7, 2013 by Fairweather

[prole]

My viscosity has never been in question.

[olyclimber]

amirite

[rob]

Basically? Literally.

[olyclimber]

and Congress is mother, mary, and the holy ghost all in one.