catbirdseat Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 A side track on Anna's post "I've been Humbled" involved fear when leading trad. When is it rational, and when is it irrational? Is fear always bad, or does it sometimes serve a useful purpose. What is the best response to it? To suppress it, and push on or react to it and retreat, that is the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I thought this would be a discussion about Ashcroft. Thank goodness it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 Anyone who doesn't fear John Ashcroft in not in touch with reality. Â Here's a thought. Can fear be actually pleasurable? I mean, it causes adrenaline to be released and some people get off on that. Are there people who have completely mastered fear? At that point, what is the reward? The challenge? The uncertainty of success? If every climb (and I'm talking about alpine climbs in particular) were guaranteed to succeed, it would not be nearly as appealing. I might as well just go for a hike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Fear is sometimes the cause for good judgement and bad. Ride with your experiences and you'll decide what was right in the long run while looking back. I don't believe there is any science to it. Â If you dont have any experiences well then ....... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Of course fear is part of why you're there. Half the fun of climbing, particularly alpine mountain stuff, is how much one appreciates the feeling of safety and security while relaxing in front of a fireplace after battling it out in the ice and snow a few hours earlier. Fear makes you appreciate the little things in life that the average joe, stepping through life with little risk, takes for granted. In today's sterilized society, honestly how many times do you feel like you're fighting for your life like you do in the alpine in full conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Well, occasionally I feel Caveman might hunt me down and gut me like a fish...now that's REAL fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_J Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Naw Cavey would just leave you there I'd gut you.hahahaha  Fear is a bad because it causes your voluntary muscles to not move fluidly. I did not learn how to relax until I was introduced to Tae Kwon Do and Thai Kick Boxing. My master taught me how to control fear to an extent thru breathing and "I can do, I am good with this". My wife focuses on the immediate problem in front of her face and does a little song to her self that relaxes her. I think the important thing here is to relax the muscles and go with whatever plan you have decided upon. I've used my method with climbing, ring fighting, with my wrestlers and it works, but its something you need to work on and practice so it will click in quickly so you click on when the situation calls for it. I'd like to hear more on this subject and how people control getting gripped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I agree with Iain. Non-climbin' city slickers really don't know how close mountain climbers come to losing their lives every time they go out (comparatively speaking). Even on class 2 terrain, there's nothing stopping us from taking a flying leap off a nearby cliff. Then there's rockfall and avalanches and bears and... Â Now though, fear in general and what it does or doesn't do for you or me is an esoteric thing. It all affects us somehow, but the effects are ineffable for the most part. It's just a feeling you get. Like trying to define the word love, which might be considered the antithesis of fear...except for those who fear love or love fear. Â Things I love: Things I fear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 sisu good call on the martial arts. They helped me learn to control and direct fear when it showed up, and it always does. I learned how to mentally center myself when I started to freak out, to the point that I can catch it long before it becomes panic. Â Being able to welcome fear like an old friend, acknowledge its presence, and employ it to drive you to new levels of ability, is one of the most satisfying things in climbing. It's healthy to be scared at times. It also seems to be one of the most difficult concepts to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I agree with the marial arts. Plus I learned to crush a brick with my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Like anything else, I think you develop a tolerance for fear and learn to deal with it better as you gain more experience, wheather it's climbing, martial arts, starting your own business, getting married, whatever..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 Getting married... now THAT's scary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Scary: Parallel parking a stickshift pickup with bad side mirrors between Harleys outside a biker bar!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 More like suicidal. Â Supposedly the worlds longest fist fight took place in Concrete between cement truck drivers and Hell's Angles members when a truck driver took out about two dozen Harley's with his truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 True story. My old man the attorney was involoved in some of the post legals issues related to that event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Greg you wouldn't be sweating it with this truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 19, 2002 Author Share Posted December 19, 2002 I'd love to hear more details about it. All I know is what little was in the Guinness Book of World Records. Was anyone killed? Did the truck driver have to pay for the Harleys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PullinFool Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Fear releases adrenalin, and many climbers are adrenalin junkies (among other things), so doesn't that equate to addiction to fear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I don't know the details. Client confidentiality and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Thanks for the idea, Iain. I am in the market for a new truck....hmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Fear has different effects on different people. There is a whole range of human temperament and response to fear. A good number of people are 100 per cent avoidant of risky experiences, because the presence of fear is so unpleasant to them. Then there is the climbing community, most of whom need a frequent dose of risk to feel normal. I agree with an article I read about monkeys a few years ago, looking at personality/temperament range among baboons. They found that the baboon groups studied tended to have a blend of conservative, risk-averse types and daring, risk-taker types. The study concluded that any one community is probably better off with some of each, since each behavior has its advantages that could benefit the entire community (i.e. if risk taking was only risky, never beneficial, then the risk-taking gene would have been eliminated). Besides the danger of the risky behavior, the other negative of the risk taking personality, according to this article, was that creatures (monkeys, people) with this temperament may actually need to take frequent risks to feel normal, and will get listless and depressed if they don't get the regular stimulus of risk. This rings completely true to my experience with most climber types. The negative side of the risk-averse personality is that it's too easily overwhelmed, when the risky situation can't be avoided. I have also seen examples of this. Most of you have probably been in the mountains with someone who was there for the first or second time, and was discovering that they really disliked the risky environment. Those people don't climb for long. But I would venture that they still can lead full, interesting lives-- just different ones than I would choose for myself. Â Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 Some situations require extra attention. I always try to pay extra attention when I'm scared. Seems like a positive use of something most people try to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 I was trying to correlate the Myers-Briggs personality profiles to this trait, expecting to find the ISTP as a predominant (risk-taker) type. Instead, it was the INTJ profile that coming up, which is quite different from ISTP. Could it be the deliberate thinking and decision-making involved that draws the INTJ? I dunno. Interesting subject. Â BTW, I still want mtngoat to take that M-B survey...but he thinks it's a trap, I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toast Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 When is it rational, and when is it irrational? Is fear always bad, or does it sometimes serve a useful purpose. What is the best response to it? To suppress it, and push on or react to it and retreat, that is the question. Â One of the strange things climbing has gotten me over is my fear of heights. I concentrate more on the task at hand and forego the vertigo. When stopped at the crux, I've found saying to myeself the magic words, "it's just mental," gets me past most obstacles. There's just something threaputic about mumbling those little words out loud. To answer your question, I've just pushed on. As a result I've grown, and for that I'm glad to climb another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 19, 2002 Share Posted December 19, 2002 If you fear too much you fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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