And I bet you thought Twight was dead.....

[Dane]

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-cheaters-have-done-to-us.html

 

Add to that list Diamox for clients, guides and the idoits on Rainier.

 

Did it myself on occasion bitd but agreed with Twight on this and would take the label of cheater even further now obviously.

[genepires]

nice! thanks Dane.

 

maybe we could use this as a means to confess our sins?

 

Edited January 29, 2013 by genepires

[Stefan]

Mark Twight said thus: "If O2 allows one to accomplish a task that he or she otherwise could not do or was not willing to do then O2 is a performance-enhancing drug and should be treated as such."

 

What about boots? What about an ice axe? What about down clothing? What about dehydrated food? What about Gatorade? O2 is a piece of equipment.

 

[CascadeClimber]

Twight is the Madonna of the climbing world. He's done a lot of amazing things over a long period of time, but he's also willing to do or say just about anything for some attention.

 

So bottled oxygen is cheating, but he sprayed all over about how after climbing the Czech Direct in a single push, he was too tired to carry his stove down the mountain, so he left it when he ran out of fuel.

 

Whatever, Mark.

[genepires]

What about boots? What about an ice axe? What about down clothing? What about dehydrated food? What about Gatorade? O2 is a piece of equipment.

 

I think his arguement is that when someone can climb everest without boots or axe or down clothing, then it shows the potential of us and we should strive to match or beat that. So far, I have not heard of anyone doing it naked without a axe.

[genepires]

So bottled oxygen is cheating, but he sprayed all over about how after climbing the Czech Direct in a single push, he was too tired to carry his stove down the mountain, so he left it when he ran out of fuel.

 

this is an example of a man not living up to his ideals. Doesn't mean the message is wrong, just that he is human.

 

 

[Alan Trick]

What about boots? What about an ice axe? What about down clothing? What about dehydrated food? What about Gatorade? O2 is a piece of equipment.

 

+1. Mark is just being sloppy here. You can call 02 equipment, or you can call it aid, but cheating is just ridiculous. Nobody goes up Everest with 02 canisters hidden in their jacket, furtively sipping on them, hoping nobody will notice.

 

Aid usually isn't 'cool', and sometimes it's artless overkill (like building a bold ladder beside a beautiful crack), but it is not dishonest. Mark is just using this term to try and lump these guys with people like Lance Armstrong who made a living off being dishonest. His analogy is bad and he should feel bad.

[tvashtarkatena]

Every biz needs some PR now and then.

[ivan]

i would be a great member of an ethics committee

[tvashtarkatena]

Would nitrous be cheating?

[wfinley]

At 14 camp a couple years ago there was a rumor that Twight lead a group of SEALS who tanked up on a bag full of drugs before blitzing from 14 to the summit and back.

[Dane]

he sprayed all over about how after climbing the Czech Direct in a single push, he was too tired to carry his stove down the mountain, so he left it when he ran out of fuel.

 

He also admitted to leaving the stove and gear on the Solvak and how shattered they all were just getting back to 14. Not letting the fact that 13 years later no one has come close to accomplishing the same thing on the route mind you.

 

Love the rumors. Facts are little more specific. Typical recommended dose of Diamox is now a "tanked on a bag full of drugs" somehow?

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Anyone who doesn't pack a BFOD (bag full of drugs) on a high altitude expedition is a masochist.

 

I've left gear all over the Cascades.

 

Fkn snaffles.

Edited January 29, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[dougd]

I have always respected Mark Twight's honesty and integrity. I may not agree with him always, but he has my respect. That is not given away to just anyone...

 

The bottom line in this for me is that folks need to be honest about their accomplishments, with themselves, and others...

 

I never liked that the summit of Everest is available to anyone with the money to spend.

 

d

Edited January 29, 2013 by dougd

[rob]

Typical recommended dose of Diamox is now a "tanked on a bag full of drugs" somehow?

 

 

O2 is doping but not diamox?

 

I think his arguement is that when someone can climb everest without boots or axe or down clothing, then it shows the potential of us and we should strive to match or beat that. So far, I have not heard of anyone doing it naked without a axe.

 

The "FA" party on Everest didn't have a lot of the fancy toys climbers now use. Are lightweight alloys and technical fabrics cheating, also?

[marcus]

Supplemental oxygen is a powerful drug with distinct and undeniable performance-enhancing properties. Offering such substances up to clients on high-altitude expeditions only allows and encourages them to climb even further past the envelope of their limited skills sets. This to me seems less than responsible.

 

As for climbers claiming first or notable ascents using supplemental oxygen: it certainly is cheating by today's standards and should be viewed as such. The fact that most people beyond our community do not and never will understand this fact doesn't negate it. While early ascensionists in the embryonic days of high-altitude mountaineering used supplemental oxygen as a matter of course, to continue to do so into the 21st century only degrades the accomplishments of those who followed in their footsteps, raising the bar and moving our sport into the modern age.

 

Recreational climbers using supplemental oxygen? The mountains provide an opportunity for each of us to explore parts of ourselves we might not easily access in everyday circumstances. 'Good Style' means different things to different people. But please clean up after yourselves!

 

MFT can be a real lightning rod with his polemical manner of speaking. But this controversy didn't start with him - so focusing solely on his own actions or spicy choice of words only delays your facing up to the truth.

 

Deal with it.

 

 

[ivan]

i cheat at solataire - there, i said it

[rob]

 

As for climbers claiming first or notable ascents using supplemental oxygen: it certainly is cheating and should be viewed as such.

 

Tenzing and Hillary -- such cheaters

[tvashtarkatena]

Supplemental oxygen is a powerful drug with distinct and undeniable performance-enhancing properties. Offering such substances up to clients on high-altitude expeditions only allows and encourages them to climb even further past the envelope of their limited skills sets. This to me seems less than responsible.

 

As for climbers claiming first or notable ascents using supplemental oxygen: it certainly is cheating and should be viewed as such. The fact that most people beyond our community do not and never will understand this fact doesn't negate it.

 

Recreational climbers using supplemental oxygen? The mountains provide an opportunity for each of us to explore parts of ourselves we might not easily access in everyday circumstances. 'Good Style' means different things to different people. But please clean up after yourselves!

 

MFT can be a real lightning rod with his polemical manner of speaking. But this controversy didn't start with him - so focusing solely on his own actions or spicy choice of words only delays your facing up to the truth.

 

Deal with it.

 

 

Lighten up, Francis.

[ADKMan]

 

This is an interesting but circular discussion. Most everyone who summited Everest in the 20+ years or so after Tenzing and Hillary used supplemental oxygen. Were they all cheating? On the other hand, they wore wool clothing, hauled heavy equipment that we all consider to be antique technology. Technology and techniques change over time and it's not always easy to accept changes in the "rules" which go along with these advancements.

Edited January 29, 2013 by ADKMan

[marcus]

Interestingly, Diamox is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency solely because it can mask the detection of performance-enhancing drugs. From the WADA website:

 

Pros:

prevent detection of banned substances

produce urine excretion to reduce concentration of banned substances

weight loss

 

Cons:

blood pressure drop

cramps

death

dehydration

dizziness

electrolyte imbalance

headaches

heart failure

kidney failure

muscle cramps

nausea

potassium depletion

volume depletion

 

 

Anecdotally, I once took Diamox as a prophylactic measure at altitude but found the side effects were insurmountable. One week later with sufficient acclimatization time, I felt and performed much better without it.

 

 

[dougd]

i cheat at solataire - there, i said it

 

Another honest man. Bravo!

[wfinley]

Typical recommended dose of Diamox is now a "tanked on a bag full of drugs" somehow?

O2 is doping but not diamox?

The rumors were at 14 camp where gossip and innuendo are the norm.

 

As for drugs -- half of the high altitude climbers out there are sucking down Diamox from the start and dropping Dexamethasone on summit day. Using drug technology is no different than hauling light gear and ditching it at 17K on Denali to speed things up.

 

 

[Water]

getting to facts, seems like the use of O2 alone doesn't meet a single definition of the word cheat. if someone came back from a guided o2 trip and said they did it all alone without any aid then they are more of a liar than a cheat really.

 

i could give fuckall about cheaters in sports--i mean really, cheating in sports, let alone insinuating that people are 'cheating' in non-competitive personal pursuits...haha what a laugh. A person who cheats in sports doesn't cause any impact to humanity. They taint ideals and possibly hurt themselves but please tell me how it impacts me. The idea that say USPS was defrauded by LA.. please, they gained huge publicity. there is something telling that there is debate over this (for 30 minutes on PBS news sunday night)..but we've moved past the people who cheated our economic system to its ruin, robbing jobs, savings, and livelihood from people. really cheating in climbing.. what about the whole 'hike your own hike'/climb your own climb. is somebody who trail runs the AT or PCT cheating compared to a person who completes it by foraging and taking 9 months? such a discussion is absurd.

 

[cheet]verb (used with object)

1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.

verb (used without object)

4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

7. Informal. to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.

noun

8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar.

9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat.

10. Law. the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick.

11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.

[wfinley]

This is an excerpt from an essay Catherine Mulvihill wrote in the '01 Canadian Alpine journal. I always think of it when reading about Twight.