Ivan: I 1240...GO

[prole]

cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools

buy their way into better schools

bought their way into good school districts

used money buy their way into a good school district

use money to buy their way out of crappy schools

 

Wow, this is amazing! I mean, what you're saying is, we should just use MONEY to BUY our way into better schools!

Glad to see you're as much a free-thinker as ever. Always taking a nuanced, ecumenical approach to suit the complexities of any issue under discussion.

God, you're a fucking tool.

[prole]

cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools

buy their way into better schools

bought their way into good school districts

used money buy their way into a good school district

use money to buy their way out of crappy schools

 

We should start trying to run every aspect of our society like this.

Oh, wait, we are...and it's sucking.

 

[Crux]

Reading various articles about charter schools, the pros-and-cons, I note laudable efforts by self-described technocrats, such as Bill Gates, to improve education. Efforts are experimental, but in some cases there's progress toward the goal of making things better for the kids.

 

Overall, for charter schooling, sometimes education proves better, sometimes it proves worse--giving us disparate outcomes that muddle the choice. Also, there appears to be a lot of variety in the approaches to charter schooling. So much variety, in fact, that parties across the political spectrum are betting on charter schools, with different parties sometimes having very different agenda--and this too, is confusing. It's as though proponents who have mutually exclusive goals, are pursuing those goals by the same means, begging the question, who is fooling who? One might dismiss that question as being no more than a cynical waste of time, but working with such paradoxical evidence, we voters are left to figure out what's really going on, and doing so isn't easy.

 

But it is easy, actually, to see that of all the conflicting directions suggested by both advocates and opponents of charter schools, there seems to be only one clear difference that sets charter schools apart from regular public schools: With all charter school models, union membership for school employees is banned.

 

In my view, there's no good reason for the charter model to necessarily be totally anti-union, while at once it is clear there's no sure advantage to be provided to most students by charter schools. Therefore, what we have here is a resolute focus against unions, with no established means for promoting the welfare of the students.

 

I'm pretty sure I know what my vote on I-1240 is going to be, but I have a question: What the charter school initiative provides us with is not so much a choice on how to provide for education, but a choice on busting the school employees's union. Why is that?

 

various articles:

31Jan2012 The Stranger "Charter School Mania Is Back"

21May2012 New York Times "Gates Puts the Focus on Teaching"

 

Edited October 23, 2012 by Crux

[tvashtarkatena]

cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools

buy their way into better schools

bought their way into good school districts

used money buy their way into a good school district

use money to buy their way out of crappy schools

 

We should start trying to run every aspect of our society like this.

Oh, wait, we are...and it's sucking.

 

N CUT N RUN FUM ANAE PROLLUM THAT DA FREE MAHKET CAINT FIX. DOEN GTTZ ME WRONG, US BLACK FOLK LOVES US SUM FREE GOODZ N SOIVICES!

[JayB]

I've heard make this argument are people who bought their way into good school districts and wouldn't dream of sending their own kids into the crappy public schools that they want to trap the poor kids in.

 

Translation: let public schools in poorer districts die on the vine rather than fund and fix them properly. Randian Fuck the Poor Policy #467.

 

Not that I don't think you believe your own bullshit, Jay. I think you actually do, so there's that.

 

What in God's name do you know about the public school system anyway? How do you know its so fucked and 'beyond repair'?

 

Now on to the'whites and asians and indians' remark...yup...the real root of your message: WEZE GOTS TA GIT 'WAY FUM DEM CULLUDZ, N VOUCHUHZ N CHAHTUHZ BE DA WAY TA DO IT!

 

 

 

The interesting thing that unifies the folks opposed to charter/voucher programs here the underlying assumption that there will be a significant net migration out of conventional public schools and into charter/private schools - at least amongst engaged parents who care about their children's education. If public schools are the best solution for all kids, why on earth would parents be so anxious to get their kids out of them?

 

I think that most parents in most neighborhoods where the schools are decent-to-excellent will keep their kids in public schools, but it wouldn't surprise me if the parents of children in poor areas where the schools are terrible and remaining in them is going to consign their kids to a life of poverty jumped at the opportunity to take a chance on something different.

 

Didn't you go to private catholic schools all the way through? I actually attended a public junior high and high-school with all of the racial and socioeconomic diversity that folks like to wax poetic about from afar. It worked out fine for me - but I could have done without the company of the four or five classmates hauled off for murder between years 7-12, ditto for the kids of all races who were getting into the gang thing. Thankfully that didn't really affect me directly and there were some aspects of being in that environment that I think were valuable. I'm not sure what the 25% of the kids in my class who failed to graduate got out of the experience, but it's possible that they may have been better served by a different learning environment.

 

Anyhow - lunchtime is over, so I'll leave you with this partisan drivel from a notorious right-wing rag....

 

"Urban black America favors school vouchers, but its leaders don't. Vouchers transfer authority over the use of a portion of government education funds from bureaucrats to parents, who then may use their grants to send their children to the schools, secular or religious, they believe will best educate their kids.

 

But we must be honest. If the Supreme Court rules in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris that the Cleveland voucher program is constitutional, the decision will help some families, but it will not expand the educational opportunities of all black children. Even so, such a result is likely to increase black support for vouchers. It will also show how far out of touch the black governmental class is with its black constituency.

 

A 1999 survey by Public Agenda, a nonpartisan research group, found that 68 percent of blacks favor vouchers. A similar poll by the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a nonpartisan think tank, showed that the percentage of blacks supporting school vouchers rose to 60 percent in 1999 from 48 percent in 1996..."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/26/opinion/why-blacks-support-vouchers.html

[JayB]

cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools

buy their way into better schools

bought their way into good school districts

used money buy their way into a good school district

use money to buy their way out of crappy schools

 

Wow, this is amazing! I mean, what you're saying is, we should just use MONEY to BUY our way into better schools!

Glad to see you're as much a free-thinker as ever. Always taking a nuanced, ecumenical approach to suit the complexities of any issue under discussion.

God, you're a fucking tool.

 

Thanks!

 

Sorry to be the one to let you in on the secret that most people in the middle-and-higher income ranges use their earning power to buy their way into good school districts by acquiring property in them.

 

Vouchers would just give people in the lower income ranges a chance to do the same if they want to.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sorry to be the one to let you in on the secret that most people in the middle-and-higher income ranges use their earning power to buy their way into good school districts by acquiring property in them.

 

Just goes to show how out of touch Prole is. Not that that is a surprise to anyone.

 

[rob]

Whenever I feel like I'm being tricked by clever politicians, one thought exercise I do is to change the subject of the argument and see if it still makes sense.

 

For example, irt vouchers: How about security vouchers? We can let people use security vouchers to purchase private security contractors instead of police. That money will be subtracted from the overall municipal police budget. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Right?

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Whenever I feel like I'm being tricked by clever politicians, one thought exercise I do is to change the subject of the argument and see if it still makes sense.

 

For example, irt vouchers: How about security vouchers? We can let people use security vouchers to purchase private security contractors instead of police. That money will be subtracted from the overall municipal police budget. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Right?

 

 

dunno. you've heard that 911 is a joke, haven't you?

[JayB]

Whenever I feel like I'm being tricked by clever politicians, one thought exercise I do is to change the subject of the argument and see if it still makes sense.

 

For example, irt vouchers: How about security vouchers? We can let people use security vouchers to purchase private security contractors instead of police. That money will be subtracted from the overall municipal police budget. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Right?

 

 

How do you feel about food stamps? Aren't those vouchers?

 

 

[ivan]

How do you feel about food stamps? Aren't those vouchers?

 

i suppose - the government could also just run its own soup kitchens, but since the private infrastructure already's in place, why bother? that certainly isn't the case w/ public schools.

[olyclimber]

remember when the government made cheese? I basically grew up on that stuff. it made the best cheese toast. slap a bit of mayo on there between the bread and cheese and put it in the oven for a little bit.

[ivan]

 

Sorry to be the one to let you in on the secret that most people in the middle-and-higher income ranges use their earning power to buy their way into good school districts by acquiring property in them.

 

Vouchers would just give people in the lower income ranges a chance to do the same if they want to.

 

but it's still the assumption that private schools will be better - for the lower income folk, the first concern is basic security - private-run prisons don't seem better at preventing riots, do they?

 

how does the charter school on the other side of town help you if a) you have to pay to get all the way over there and b) once you arrive, it has the same herd of deranged lunatics who fled your public school? and if the reality is the charter school can just refuse to admit the lunatics, isn't that just converting hte public school to a full-on prison itself?

 

it's not surprising inner city folk are pro-charter/vouchers - folks on the top of burning buildings often jump - it's not like it helps though...

[ivan]

remember when the government made cheese? I basically grew up on that stuff. it made the best cheese toast. slap a bit of mayo on there between the bread and cheese and put it in the oven for a little bit.

it made the indians !

 

and me, for that matter, i remember eating plenty of that classic repo-man generic shit when i lived on army bases - the potato chips were better

[selkirk]

Like hospitals - the more you build them, the more they fill up.

 

It certainly helps fill them up when the prison industry heavily lobies to have more stringent sentencing minimums, as well as ensuring that the there is no rehabilative aspect to the prisons so their cash cow is sure to come back.

 

Really a pretty disgusting industry.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yup. Rehabilitation = higher cost of goods + new customer acquisition costs.

 

Run it like a bidness! Let's all dip our beaks!

 

Hey, JayB - how do feel about private prisons, since you be lovin' state funded private schools?

 

US BLACK FOLK WANTSTA KNOW, CUZ MAYBE WE COULD COMBAHN UM FO 'FFISHUNCY. GRADE 13, YA KNOW?

 

 

Edited October 23, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[JayB]

 

Sorry to be the one to let you in on the secret that most people in the middle-and-higher income ranges use their earning power to buy their way into good school districts by acquiring property in them.

 

Vouchers would just give people in the lower income ranges a chance to do the same if they want to.

 

but it's still the assumption that private schools will be better - for the lower income folk, the first concern is basic security - private-run prisons don't seem better at preventing riots, do they?

 

how does the charter school on the other side of town help you if a) you have to pay to get all the way over there and b) once you arrive, it has the same herd of deranged lunatics who fled your public school? and if the reality is the charter school can just refuse to admit the lunatics, isn't that just converting hte public school to a full-on prison itself?

 

it's not surprising inner city folk are pro-charter/vouchers - folks on the top of burning buildings often jump - it's not like it helps though...

 

-I'm not necessarily making that assumption - but if they look at the public schools available to them and make that determination on their own I then I'd like them to have that option. If it turns out that the public schools actually do a better job than the alternatives that spring up the students will basically stay where they are no?.

 

-As far as the dregs are concerned - from what I could see at my high-school neither the gangbangers, thugs, and drugged-out wasteoids were doing much to improve the learning experience for the rest of the students* or the teachers who had to deal with them while trying to teach the rest of us, nor was the conventional school environment doing much for them. I'm not sure what the best solution is for kids who fall into those categories but the traditional sit-listen-and-do-homework model sure wasn't it.

 

*I did learn that white semi-suburban kids with aspirations to join a gang were generally the most sensitive to perceived slights to their street-cred and by far the most twitchy and volatile.

[rob]

Whenever I feel like I'm being tricked by clever politicians, one thought exercise I do is to change the subject of the argument and see if it still makes sense.

 

For example, irt vouchers: How about security vouchers? We can let people use security vouchers to purchase private security contractors instead of police. That money will be subtracted from the overall municipal police budget. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Right?

 

 

How do you feel about food stamps? Aren't those vouchers?

 

 

Offering food stamps doesn't take away from a larger pool of money meant for "socialized groceries" or whatever from an official government grocery. They would be similar if everyone got their groceries from the Obama'Mart for free, but you could get food stamps to buy elsewhere.

 

A better analogy to food stamps would be government college grants. They're really good credits, not food vouchers.

[JayB]

Whenever I feel like I'm being tricked by clever politicians, one thought exercise I do is to change the subject of the argument and see if it still makes sense.

 

For example, irt vouchers: How about security vouchers? We can let people use security vouchers to purchase private security contractors instead of police. That money will be subtracted from the overall municipal police budget. Sounds like a terrible idea.

 

Right?

 

 

How do you feel about food stamps? Aren't those vouchers?

 

 

Offering food stamps doesn't take away from a larger pool of money meant for "socialized groceries" or whatever from an official government grocery. They would be similar if everyone got their groceries from the Obama'Mart for free, but you could get food stamps to buy elsewhere.

 

A better analogy to food stamps would be government college grants. They're really good credits, not food vouchers.

 

-Converting to a voucher system wouldn't reduce the total pool of public funds available to for educating children. It'd just result in a system where schools have to compete to attract students in order to pay for their overhead and salaries. Given the massive and growing percentage of the public school budget that currently goes to admin and overhead costs - there's actually plenty of room to reconfigure spending so that more of the money actually winds up in the classroom even though the total amount of spending is the same.

 

I'm all for using public money to fund education - but it's not clear to me that funneling it directly into an unaccountable monopoly is the best way to translate public spending on education into the best learning outcomes...in the same way that funneling money into a government-run food production and distribution network is unlikely to be the best way to insure that poor people have access to quality food at a reasonable price.

 

Having said that - if our main objective is to an unaccountable monopoly provide guaranteed access to a massive pool of public money irrespective of how well it delivers the good that it's supposed to produce then the current system is definitely perfect for achieving that goal.

[JayB]

Yup. Rehabilitation = higher cost of goods + new customer acquisition costs.

 

Run it like a bidness! Let's all dip our beaks!

 

Hey, JayB - how do feel about private prisons, since you be lovin' state funded private schools?

 

US BLACK FOLK WANTSTA KNOW, CUZ MAYBE WE COULD COMBAHN UM FO 'FFISHUNCY. GRADE 13, YA KNOW?

 

 

Dunno. Depends on how they perform and what their incentives are. It's not as though there are no monetary incentives in place that distort policy - just take a look at the voting/lobbying activities of the prison guard's union in California regarding their idiotic three strikes law, drug legalization, etc.

 

The government directly (grants) and indirectly (loans) spends many billions of dollars financing private educations at the college level, many of which are religious. Is this a problem for you or are you okay with that?

 

 

[Jim]

 

-Converting to a voucher system wouldn't reduce the total pool of public funds available to for educating children. It'd just result in a system where schools have to compete to attract students in order to pay for their overhead and salaries. Given the massive and growing percentage of the public school budget that currently goes to admin and overhead costs - there's actually plenty of room to reconfigure spending so that more of the money actually winds up in the classroom even though the total amount of spending is the same.

 

Except - a private group can be hired to run the school, at a profit - and not have to pay the school system for rent or upkeep of the building they occupy - that's a sweet deal. And, as the siphon off the $10k per student fee from the public, they somehow, manage to do worse with kids of color and the special needs kids, who usually end up staying in the public system, or trying the charter and bailing. Nothing like skimming.

[tvashtarkatena]

1) public schools aren't monopolies, and they certainly aren't unaccountable by any stretch. You can buy your way out of them if you wish - on your dime, of course. I don't want to pay for your 'premium services' (if, in fact, that is what private schools are - the vast majority are Kristian Indoctrination Centers)

 

2) How human of you to compare a very human experience like education to a factory process like food production. Speaks almost as loud as your WHITEASIANINDIAN comment. Look, ya don't think much of African Americans. We get that.

 

3) Schools should not 'compete' for students. They should serve their communities and the society at large by educating them. Some communities are poor, have a lot of new immigrants, and have other challenges. These communities should not be left behind for basic moral reasons, if nothing else. Under your scheme, they will be.

 

Abandoning whole communities because they 'can't compete', particularly in a property value driven funding scheme, widens the gap between rich and poor. You're down for that, and we get that, too. Fuck those who didn't get that head start by being born lucky.

 

Some of the rest of us see that as the slow motion, justice raping, job destroying disaster that it is, however.

 

Your ideas are an insult to the basic American value of equal opportunity for all, particularly children, who cannot be blamed for the circumstances of their birth. I think you mean well, but then, so did Hitler.

 

And yes, that was obviously a joke.

 

Regarding 'financing religious higher education', um, that's a loan that gets paid back with interest, not my tax dollars going out the door for good, last time I checked. Higher education is also not compulsory for all. Another PEOPLE = POTATO PRODUCTION argument. You can do better than that. I can in my sleep, and I'm just a dumb ass Irishman.

Edited October 24, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

an unaccountable monopoly

how am i not held accountable? parents can (and do) routinely request to meet/communicate w/ me and to explain my course, procedures, and evaluations of their kids, my school must honor the legal requirements of iep's or face lawsuits, the district must routinely get the community to approve bond measures, etc.

 

also, how is it a monopoly when there are, in fact, alternative private schools?

[rob]

government itself sounds like an "unaccountable monopoly." I suggest allowing charter governments so that I can find one that suits me better than this one, and all of my taxes can shift over there. Sound OK? Thanks!

[ivan]

-As far as the dregs are concerned - from what I could see at my high-school neither the gangbangers, thugs, and drugged-out wasteoids were doing much to improve the learning experience for the rest of the students* or the teachers who had to deal with them while trying to teach the rest of us, nor was the conventional school environment doing much for them. I'm not sure what the best solution is for kids who fall into those categories but the traditional sit-listen-and-do-homework model sure wasn't it.

 

*I did learn that white semi-suburban kids with aspirations to join a gang were generally the most sensitive to perceived slights to their street-cred and by far the most twitchy and volatile.

there is, of course, already a bit of segregation w/n many public high schools themselves - AP programs pretty neatly concentrate the folks w/ problems like you describe into the "regular" classes (and that's my rice-bowl! ) - folks like me than have to figure out how to make it work best for that crowd (hint: as much as it hurts me, we don't get to read much hobbes, locke n' smith in all their glorious length )

 

still, just like "breakfast club," even the smart bitches gotta rub elbows w/ the proles occasionally in shop n' pottery class, and that's probably a good thing (shit, the biggest trouble i got into in school was always in those classes, and that's what made them great! they also helped reaffirm my raging adolescent sense of superiority )

 

the bottom line is, society must deal w/ it's problem elements, the cripples, bastards and broken things that are, for better and worse, part of us (and hopefully not by just building the walls of our prisons higher and higher and higher)