Ivan: I 1240...GO

[ivan]

i'm a high school social studies/humanities teacher, a grade level and subject that has the greatest leeway for individualism i think - elementary and math/science folks seem far more pressured to be in lock-step w/ each other

[selkirk]

My biggest concern is that the public charter schools would effectively be a funding cut for the regular public schools. As pat said, why not just fix the regular public schools? Oh wait, teachers union. It's a tough nut to crack. I wish I had money for private schools, my kids are struggling.

 

Not necessarily a silver bullet there either. A goodly portion of the teachers are those who couldn't get into the public school system. As for the kids, they have more money but that does not equal fewer problems or better kids, just more expensive problems.

 

 

[selkirk]

My biggest concern is that the public charter schools would effectively be a funding cut for the regular public schools. As pat said, why not just fix the regular public schools? Oh wait, teachers union. It's a tough nut to crack. I wish I had money for private schools, my kids are struggling.

w/ respect, i don't think you know what you're talking about - i'm an active union member, and, if anything, our union is pretty damn weak w/ the vast # of members really not involved at all (a microcosm of the larger political landscape, no?) - my own participation as a member involves working w/ administrators throughout my district, and all w/ the main idea of serving the kids, not just maintaining a status quo - an example from this year: implementing a new state-wide evaluation system for both teachers and principals that was created by the legislature in part to address the concerns of the states citizens that "bad teachers" aren't being weeded out (i volunteered to be a guinea pig for the pilot year to help work out the bugs, and the active members of the union were very involved to help form the bill in the first place, despite the unease that the general membership inevitably felt, as all humans do, in the face of change)

 

i don't complain much about the lack of prestige or remuneration that accompanies the profession, b/c i went into it eyes wide shut n' never had strong aspirations for such anyhow - the bottom line is though, if you want to attract huge numbers of exceptional people into the profession, you're probably going to have to make it more attractive (and no matter how much you pay, it's hard to get people to survive the stress of the first few years - jesus, go try it sometime! your memory of school of course is from the students' perspective - holy shit it's different when having to perform over n' over in front of 150 or so folks a day, constantly under the gun, dealing w/ a gazillion different challenges, all on the fly, and often inexplicably involved and entangled in one another)

 

just defining "good teacher" and "good school" is a sisyphean task, one that is highly variably by kid, community and subject

 

the public perception is that most teachers are dipshit deadbeats - i'm approaching 2 decades in the profession now, and while i HAVE known a few folks that fit that description, they represent a tiny minority of the total, probably about the same in any other industry

 

what do you think unions have really gotten in the way of that would have made all the difference?

 

Good for you Ivan! It's much appreciated.

[tvashtarkatena]

Did some research. Charter schools are backed by two special interest groups: private bidnesses wanting to cash in on privatization of state funded education N bust another union while they're at it, and d Kristians, who bait and switched the unpopular 'voucher' movement for the better sounding 'charter' program. Its typical Rfuck skulduggery n buggery, as usual.

 

Scam. Vote no.

 

On a different note, ive spoken about gay weed n free speech at a number of high schools, and have been impressed by the intelligence and engagement of teachers and students.

Edited October 22, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Pete_H]

Why do you think that everything involving private business is inherently bad? You come across as being the exact mirror image of Fox News conservatives that think anything involving the public sector is anathema.

[tvashtarkatena]

Dumb troll from a smart guy, speaking of using a classic Fox tactic.

 

Did i say i was against private bidness?

 

Im against profit being the primary motive for primary govt functions like defense n education...and health care, for that matter. Im also against creating an expensive, parallel systems rather than fixing the one weve got. One of the biggest problems with public education is too many expensive layers of admin that syphon a fixed cash pie from what we need most: teachers. Im against paying for religious indoctrination of chillunz. I went to catholic school...and me Da paid for it out of pocket. Finally, im against hiding bad public policy under the guise of 'helping speshul needs kids' or whatev.

 

Is that a bit clearer for ya?

[Pete_H]

Hey, I enjoy your posts and analysis, etc. I just think you tend to be a bit ideological.

 

Anyway, I would think there'd be an easier way for an organization solely interested in profit to make a buck than from secondary education.

 

What is your source for finding out an initiative's sponsors? Not trying to rebut your conjecture, but after a cursory search such information apparently isn't easy to find.

 

Interestingly enough, Democrats for Education Reform support it. My union, in solidarity I suppose, is against it.

 

I think I'm against it too, primarily because it would cost the state lots of $ in administering and regulating the thing.

[tvashtarkatena]

One man's 'principled' is another's 'ideological'.

 

You'd think prisons wouldn't be a money maker, either.

 

They are.

[Pete_H]

Like hospitals - the more you build them, the more they fill up.

[rob]

Prisons and schools -- these seem to become more similar every day

[tvashtarkatena]

It's always more expensive and less efficient to reinvent the wheel with a huge infrastructure like public education than to improve the wheel you've got. It's a non-starter from the gitgo IMO.

 

Why split our forces to tackle the problem?

 

Must be some other reason(s) other than better education. Hmmmm.

 

[olyclimber]

NO SPIN ZONE

[JayB]

how ya feel about the voucher system for medicare? pretty similar. charter schools let whitey cut n' run and hide in private (and of course, jesusy) schools that only take the folks they want, leaving the dregs that no one else will take in public schools

 

public schools are the great leveler, pretty much the only time in citizens lives when they actually have to interact on a daily basis w/ folks outside of their narrow world

 

I hate to break it to you, amigo, but whites/asians/indians (and pretty much anyone from any ethnic group under the sun with enough income to do so) has been cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools (e.g forking over the coin required to buy homes in good school districts).

 

It's strange for me to hear progressive types vehemently oppose vouchers since a) they'd give people who don't make enough money to buy a home in a good school district or pay private school tuition the option to buy their way into better schools and b)most of the folks I've heard make this argument are people who bought their way into good school districts and wouldn't dream of sending their own kids into the crappy public schools that they want to trap the poor kids in.

 

Hearing "Vouchers - hell no!" from people that used money buy their way into a good school district so that their own kids could be insulated from having to "interact on a daily basis w/ folks outside of their narrow world" going on to vehemently oppose letting poor families use money to buy their way out of crappy schools is infinitely amusing to me.

 

I'm not putting you in this category, mind you, and vouchers and charters aren't exactly the same animal, but now that we're finally starting to take a hard look at where we want to buy a home it's something I'm starting to hear in person quite a bit more often.

 

FWIW I'm voting for the marijuana legalization and would gladly vote to see all drugs legalized immediately, and for the gay-marriage bill ("Gayweed is here! Where's Prole?) and for charter schools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

Rob's right, the washington law is about charter schools, rather than vouchers and private schools. They'll still be public, and cannot be religious, so Jesus is SOL with the current initiative. The teachers union is opposed to the charter schools approach, but I find the idea of being able to more freely innovate with a system that doesn't perform very well under the status quo to be pretty appealing. Why is it so hard to get rid of crappy teachers? When its time for layoffs, why do we get rid of the young teachers with a fire for their occupation and keep the ossified louts all students try to avoid? Geoffry Canada's schools in Harlem are charter schools, and that's not a bad experiment at all. I think we need a model that will allow for more innovation.

 

I'm inclined to vote yes on the current initiative. While the Republicans are no doubt behind it as an end run on unions, I still think trying different options is worth the effort.

 

WHY DO YOU HATE GOVERNMENT, UNIONS, AND THE MIDDLE CLASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JayB]

 

My union, in solidarity I suppose, is against it.

 

 

Aren't you an attorney? Must have changed fields, but I do like the idea of a lawyer's union.

 

"Hell No, We Won't...err....entertain offers from the undersigned party of said regarding the subordination of clauses 4.6 and 9.2b.."

[olyclimber]

Pete now a model/pilot for Abercrombie:

 

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/Abercrombie-Fitch-gulfstream-rules-687452

[ivan]

I hate to break it to you, amigo, but whites/asians/indians (and pretty much anyone from any ethnic group under the sun with enough income to do so) has been cutting and running for decades and buying their way into good schools (e.g forking over the coin required to buy homes in good school districts).

 

It's strange for me to hear progressive types vehemently oppose vouchers since a) they'd give people who don't make enough money to buy a home in a good school district or pay private school tuition the option to buy their way into better schools and b)most of the folks I've heard make this argument are people who bought their way into good school districts and wouldn't dream of sending their own kids into the crappy public schools that they want to trap the poor kids in.

 

Hearing "Vouchers - hell no!" from people that used money buy their way into a good school district so that their own kids could be insulated from having to "interact on a daily basis w/ folks outside of their narrow world" going on to vehemently oppose letting poor families use money to buy their way out of crappy schools is infinitely amusing to me.

 

I'm not putting you in this category, mind you, and vouchers and charters aren't exactly the same animal, but now that we're finally starting to take a hard look at where we want to buy a home it's something I'm starting to hear in person quite a bit more often.

 

FWIW I'm voting for the marijuana legalization and would gladly vote to see all drugs legalized immediately, and for the gay-marriage bill ("Gayweed is here! Where's Prole?) and for charter schools.

 

it still seems like magic to me that, with the amount to be spent on education fixed, dividing it up and making it portable for each patron results in everything getting groovier. instead of having one well funded school, don't you just end up w/ 2 half-funded ones? don't you lose the economies of scales you get from a single school?

 

won't private schools, funded by vouchers, be able to cherry-pick the kids they want, leaving the dregs to the public school?

 

why assume charter schools will appear in areas that public schools are struggling in? will parents in low income/high unemployment areas really be able to get their kids to the other side of town to the private school they have a voucher for?

 

my opposition isn't vehement at the moment. my initial scepticism, as said given the source of the idea, is just that of a fish who's seen juicy worms often hiding hooks.

Edited October 22, 2012 by ivan

[Jim]

I've researched this quite a bit and here's what I've learned:

 

Charter schools do no better than public schools. The argument put forward (as in today's Seattle Times OpEd) is "....but some of them do and let's learn from those". Duh - there are good examples of public schools to choose from already.

 

Charter schools take funds away from the general public school funds based on a per/student allotment.

 

Energy that could be put into the public system is now dispersed into speical charter schools - the ones who benefit are at the upper middle class end as they are the ones with resources, time, money, and political clout to get things going. As usual the lower income folks are left to fend for themselves with their limited resources. Just think of say, Magnolia schools vs. south end schools. It would just extend the disparity.

 

Where vouchers are in place it is primarily a subsidy for upper middle class folks as lower income folks still can't afford private school.

 

Where charter schools are making a difference - the example often brought up is the Harlem Children's Zone run by Geoffery Canada - whose salary is $400k a year. The school has a board of wealthy philanthropists and an incredibly successfuly fund raising arm. Not a very good model that is sustainable for most school systems. Their student/teacher ration is incredibly low - compared to public and charter schools.

 

Special education and non-english speakers - opps - as in private school you'll still have to depend on the public sector for your education.

 

My wife, a scientist by education and profession, now a middle school science teacher, works in a very creative K-8 where they do not depend on textbooks, do a lot of project work, get outside the classroom, have good parent participation, and end up int he 90 percentile of test scores - even with a mixed population of race, income, and special needs kids.

 

That said - there's a few teachers who need a swift boot in the butt but are plodding towards retirement. The kids deserve better. That responsibility belongs to the administrators.

 

Voting no on the Charter thing.

[Off_White]

 

My union, in solidarity I suppose, is against it.

 

 

Aren't you an attorney? Must have changed fields, but I do like the idea of a lawyer's union.

 

"Hell No, We Won't...err....entertain offers from the undersigned party of said regarding the subordination of clauses 4.6 and 9.2b.."

 

You're on a roll Jay, but this one made me laugh out loud.

[olyclimber]

the endgame here Ivan is a public school free utopia.

 

BUT! The current migration patterns of intelligent breeders will be halted by the voucher system, which will of course disrupt the real estate market, sending the economy into yet another tailspin.

 

 

[rob]

Bias alert!

[tvashtarkatena]

I've heard make this argument are people who bought their way into good school districts and wouldn't dream of sending their own kids into the crappy public schools that they want to trap the poor kids in.

 

Translation: let public schools in poorer districts die on the vine rather than fund and fix them properly. Randian Fuck the Poor Policy #467.

 

Not that I don't think you believe your own bullshit, Jay. I think you actually do, so there's that.

 

What in God's name do you know about the public school system anyway? How do you know its so fucked and 'beyond repair'?

 

Now on to the'whites and asians and indians' remark...yup...the real root of your message: WEZE GOTS TA GIT 'WAY FUM DEM CULLUDZ, N VOUCHUHZ N CHAHTUHZ BE DA WAY TA DO IT!

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Kimmo]

 

My wife, a scientist by education and profession, now a middle school science teacher, works in a very creative K-8 where they do not depend on textbooks, do a lot of project work, get outside the classroom, have good parent participation, and end up int he 90 percentile of test scores - even with a mixed population of race, income, and special needs kids.

 

where does your wife teach?

[ivan]

WEZE GOTS TA GIT 'WAY FUM DEM CULLUDZ, N VOUCHUHZ N CHAHTUHZ BE DA WAY TA DO IT!

 

cheeeerist, yer dialect translation is more fucked than twain's ...

 

jay is certainly right in that white flight is nothing new - i don't see why that making it easier is a good idea today though - the fight to integrate public schools was so critically a part of the history of last century that it seems mighty illogical to give up on it now - jay is a pretty big fan of the enlightenment too, so i'd hope that argument would have some weight w/ him

 

i teach in a very prosperous district now, but used to teach in an incredibly different one, back east, where 100% of the school was free/reduced lunch, most of my kids from one-parent/no-parent homes - my school was a tight-run ship, did quite well by most academic metrics, but there were other schools in the same district that were fucking disasters - from what i could see, the biggest difference was administrators, not teachers - schools w/ huge challenges in terms of crime, poverty, drugs, etc need really special principals and assistant principals to lay down the law on the street and win the hearts n' minds of a cynical student body - regardless, the vast majority of factors that determine a school's success/failure are pretty far removed from anyone in that school's control, and i don't see how that gets improved by introducing more competition via vouchers

[tvashtarkatena]

SO YOUZ A UNION MAN. N HEUH AH ALLUS PEGGED YOU FOA SUTHUN MAN.

DOEN PAY DAT JAYBEE NO MINE BIG MAN. WE BLACK FOLK DOEN NEEDS NO SKOOLIN CUZ WE JIS PRISON BOUN ANEWAYZ.