Climbing and Parenting

[Dan_Petersen]

In a different thread, Dan Harris posted the following quote from Alex Lowe:

“If you remove all of the risk, you remove all of the challenge. If you remove all of the challenge, you’ll just wither on the vine.”

Pope replied:

“Gee, Dan, I’ll bet Alex’s boys think that is really special. Guess being a dad wasn’t risky enough for him.”

 

It seems to me that what sets climbing apart from other sports or pastimes is that element of risk. It is personally fatal risk that I’m talking about, not the risk of failing your children, or the risk of putting others in peril due to faulty engineering, or the risk of embarrassment when public speaking.

Some may view Alex Lowe as having failed his children somehow by continuing to pursue a personally risky lifestyle after their birth. I do not.

Many years ago I was bouldering at Camp Long and spent some time watching a tow-headed boy about ten years old bashing his head against a 5.9 problem while on belay by an older man (old to me then was anyone in their thirties). I commented to the boy that he looked like he had the makings of a John Harlin, mostly because of the blond hair and the do-or-die attitude. Harlin had recently died on the Eiger Diretissima. The youngster literally glowed at my comment, and the man belaying him told me it was John Harlin’s son, who has since become an accomplished climber and writer himself. I doubt that he felt that his father had failed him in some way by going off to try the Eiger and dying in the attempt.

Being a parent is an awesome responsibility. Being there for the child is a big part of that responsibility, certainly. Another big part of parenting is to act as an example. What little I know of Alex Lowe, he appears to me to have set a wonderful example for his sons. He obviously had lasting friendships, a sensitive attitude toward the environment, a commitment to physical fitness, a commitment to education (based on his ability to write, at least), and strong dedication toward achieving goals. He also embodies the idea that it is important to act on your dreams, even if you are personally afraid of the consequences.

While he might not be there in person for his sons, his example does remain.

Such an example might well have been tarnished if he had held himself back from a pursuit that he obviously loved simply as a sacrifice for his children. This is my opinion, of course, and I’m posting this to hear from others as well. Happy Monday.

 

 

[hollyclimber]

Dan-

What a great thread! I don't have a ton to add, as I am not a parent. However, I have had people ask me if I will continue to climb if I have kids. I always say that I will. On the other hand, I take any responsibility I have seriously, and often my responsibilities take away from my climbing time.

I would speculate that if I had kids, my climbing would suffer a bit, as I would want to make sure that I was meeting my obligations as a parent first, and then pursuing my personal interests second. I guess I tested that by getting a dog this year. My climbing days have decreased, but I am still able to enjoy a lot of quality climbing, and I am still improving my own skill set. So, it slowed me down, but didn't stop me.

I don't buy into the argument that some people make that it is irresponsible to climb if you have kids since there is a risk of death. Risks of death abound in this life, and we can't go around living in fear. People die experiencing many past-times, or randomly in auto accidents or other tragic circumstances. I will never feel guilty about climbing because of the risk of death.

[This message has been edited by hollyclimber (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Dennis_the_Menace]

Great thread. I'm a father and climber, in that order. Some of my kids climb, some don't, it's their choice. I'd rather have my 12 year old daughter look up to Tori Allen than Britany Spears.

[Retrosaurus]

I am a father and a husband and a climber. I continue to climb and to free solo, although my standards have slipped some on a good day I still free solo to 5.10. If I did not climb, I do not know who I would be.

My son is 4 years old and sometimes he wants to go climbing with me. We have climbed 3-pitch routes together. He has followed and cleaned trad pitches that I have lead. And we have rappelled together off of climbs. Sometimes he gets scared. He has learned that it is ok to be scared and that he can do tough things even when he is.

Every day we risk failing our children in countless ways. Death is not the worst way that we might fail them.

Mitch

 

[jennie]

My father died in a climbing accident when I was 18 months. I have never thought he failed me. I am proud of his accomplishments as a climber and as a father. My step father is also an accomplished climber. CLimbing is a part of him and he has made it a part of me.

[haireball]

Death is not the only thing that can take a parent away from a child. Our society is oversupplied with businesspersons, doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists, and other professionals who hardly know their kids. I am in the rare position of having a stepson whose biological father was one of my long-time climbing partners. I regularly take my stepson, his friends, and my other sons on climbs that stretch them, and stretch my skills as a parent. I also climb with other adults. Truck-drivers get killed on the highway. Doctors catch AIDS. Policemen and firemen die on duty. Fishermen die at sea, and carpenters die in construction accidents, and professional soldiers sure as hell die in wars. I am going to die one day, and until that day, I will do what I love, sharing that doing with my wife and sons as much as they will accept, and I hope that they, too, will do what they love, with companions they love, as long as they live. If my children can learn to do that - to do what they love, with companions they love - then I will have succeeded, because they will be multiplying love in this world. If Alex Lowe's kids got anything like that from him, then he did not fail them as a parent.

[Rodchester]

You know I think it is worse for women...I mean as far as society saying they should not be a mom and climb. The amount of criticism that surrounded Alison Hargreaves was WAY WAY WAY beyond that surrounding Alex Lowe.

When Alison died coming off K2 in 1995 (?) the only thing the press focused on was that she was a mother who had left behind children.

People take chances everyday, if you are a parent and cop or a fireman it is cool. If you are a parent and a climber you are irresponsible.

Unto each their own...risk...peak...life.

[Guest]

I dont really think that comparing Alex Lowe and the other lady with surrounding media is a good example or comparison for the weekend warriors that we are Rodchester.

But if you must climb and have children I think the decision is not one that is up for public debate. Sure everyone may criticize but usually this happens following death or injury. The real responsibility lies within oneself and with the other parent if you ask me.

[This message has been edited by OfficeSpace (edited 09-10-2001).]

[goatboy]

I think this is a fascinating topic, one that I think about a lot. I am NOT a parent, but have given thought to how being one would change the nature of the climbing that I am willing to do. I feel that when one has kids, they become your first and primary responsibility.

Alex Lowe? Certainly one of the greatest climbers, and from what I've read, greatest people. Although he died reconning a climb, he essentially died while pursuing his dreams and living his life very, very fully. Alex was a very strong, and from what I've read, very safe climber.

Dan Osman -- I did not know him, but I would not call him a "very safe climber." This guy died pulling off his extreme bungee jumping routine -- leaving a wife and a kid behind. To me, that's different from Alex did, because Alex only took risks associated with climbing, whereas Dan only climbed in order to take risks.

Anyone agree with this distinction between risk as part of your dream and lifestyle VERSUS risk as a goal in itself?

[Jman]

I believe you're on to something there, goatboy.

As a father to a 5-month-old, my views have changed a bit. I've been entrusted with a very precious life and figure it would be the epitome of selfishness to leave him fatherless by doing something stupid that I could control.

I enjoy the mountains very much and completely intend on & look forward to sharing climbing experiences with my son. But I first have to be there to do that.

You can argue that we take risks in everything we do, yes. Ever driven without a seatbelt? Sure. It's a very simple thing and you might be able to get away with it all your life. You figure if you die, oh well, everybody dies sometime, right? Poor reasoning. Before you chose to buckle-up or not, were you thinking first about your family and their needs or about your convenience?

There's a fine line between necessary and unnecessary risks. You might first honestly examine your motivation for climbing. Why you choose to do something can guide you in whether or not you should. Granted people make mistakes, but when you're a parent you should be thinking first about the welfare of your child (there is no replacement for you) and the welfare of your spouse - to leave your mate 'alone' in raising children is an unfair burden and again selfish.

[As a side note, I am amazed at the time and work needed to care for a child properly. I give my wife huge credit for all that she does and I constantly feel guilty for not being able to help more during the day, but I have to work to support us financially. To imagine her doing all of that by herself - cleaning, cooking, caring for baby, AND going to work - gives me a whole new respect (and sympathy) for single-parents.]

Climbing does not equal life. It's merely a part of life. If you don't agree or believe this, then maybe you need a life to understand this. Don't get me wrong - I love climbing with a passion, it's just that there's a lot more to life.

Also, risks in climbing do not equal risks in firefighting or policing. Firefighters and policemen are highly trained, earn compensatory wages to support families, and (the clincher) take risks to protect and save lives - not just to be on top of a rock. There is a difference.

[This message has been edited by Jman (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Dwayner]

I don't see much of a big distinction between Dan Osman and Alex Lowe. They both made a lifestyle of taking big risks and they both lost and they both left a debris field of sorrow. As much as I love climbing, I recognize it as a somewhat selfish pursuit and I don't see anything heroic about dying that way.

- Dwayner

[Dan_Harris]

What a great thread. I have enjoyed reading some very thought provoking opinions. I changed careers to spend more time with my children. But we all still need to be who we are. We can't live with the fear of what might happen. I teach and see students all the time who are afraid to take any type of risk, even as simple as joining a club. By being smart and responsible about our activities we teach our children valuable lessons about taking risks and meeting challenges, whether it is on a mountain, in school, or at work.

[Jman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Petersen:

Being a parent is an awesome responsibility. Being there for the child is a big part of that responsibility, certainly. Another big part of parenting is to act as an example...

While he might not be there in person for his sons, his example does remain...

Such an example might well have been tarnished if he had held himself back from a pursuit that he obviously loved simply as a sacrifice for his children

---

Dan-

I was just re-reading what you had written and felt inclined to comment a bit further on your ideas.

Being a dead example is not parenting. Loving the child enough and making sacrifices to "be there" for him/her is more of an example than anything else you could accomplish. If that means giving up a career that you love, so be it. If you made the committment to have children (even if unintentional, you know the potential of your actions) then be strong enough to complete that responsibility.

As one person once said to me: "Any guy can get a woman pregnant, but it takes a real man to be a father." Being a true father/mother is far more committing and difficult than any climb.

 

And your last sentence is very grievous indeed - to suggest that he should not sacrifice his own beloved pursuit for his children to avoid 'tarnishing' his example?! Basically that means he should selfishly pursue his own interests/desires, not worry about his kids' welfare even if orphaned, and just be some kind of hero for them by making a reputation for being good at what he loves. That's not difficult, in fact it's a whole lot easier than being a father.

Granted, I'm not saying that he should not have done what he did. That would be like saying someone who died in a car accident should not have driven that road. But consider what choices were ultimately made in that decision and who interests were made more important. That holds true with anything you do in life.

Again, I'm not advocating to never take risks. I take calculated risks all the time. Dan Harris put it well: "We can't live with the fear of what might happen".

Just consider your motivation and the consequences of your mistakes.

[This message has been edited by Jman (edited 09-10-2001).]

[pope]

Climbing a rock is, I'm afraid, a little less special than we seem to be suggesting. It's a selfish act of indulgence. You're not changing the world, you're not making your community better, you're just hanging on the side of a rock, standing on top of a mountain. Fun, challenging, rewarding, a healthy lifestyle.... sure. But if you need to risk your life and climb extreme alpine walls just to feel happy, if you have trouble finding a sense of accomplishment in your life without dangling from some half-frozen water-ice pillar, and if you find ways to rationalize participation in these activities while your family sits home unsure of whether they'll ever see you again.....guess what? You're a selfish and pitiful person. You don't deserve your children, and I don't think you're setting any kind of example for them other than demonstrating that mountain climbing is an intoxicating form of recreation.

[adr_901]

I dont plan to add anything inspiring or thought provoking to this controversial subject. I am a father of three. I work a very demanding and stressful job ( like alot of us here) and I climb to relieve stress, maintain physical fitness, and enjoy the beauty and scenery of this great area. Because I am a father and husband I think about everything I do and keep any risk to a minimum. I think if someone wants to climb, one can pursue their passion with the same risk involved as playing around of golf. I have found myself on committing routes which had potentential to become risky, but when I really thought about what I was doing, I realized how selfish that was. It would break my heart only to imagine what life would be like without my father. I do consider it an obligation to be there for our family under any circumstance. They are all what matters in life, everything else is extra.

[Mr._Blister]

I am a husband and father of two boys. I lost my father to cancer when he was 60 and I was 17. I have been divorced once. And I have no idea what demons cause me to climb. I have tried to give it up twice, but always gove back to it. I wonder sometimes whether I am driven by some kind of character weakness or flaw. Because from a purely analytical standpoint, climbing makes no sense aside from the fresh air and exercise. And those benefits can be obtained without ever leaving the beaten trail. Go figure. Maybe my therapist can figure it out.

[Teogo]

I agree there is a huge difference between the vast majority of weekend warrioring, and trying to be one of the first people to ski down an 8,000 meter peak. Perhaps it's not amatter of ceasing to climb entirely, but keeping the needle out of the red zone. If it is impossible for someone to get a suitable amount of enjoyment out of their climbing while still throttling back on their level of risk the answer is simple: don't have kids. Osman, Lowe, and Hargraves were exceptional people, but in my mind they made the wrong choice when it came to risk and their responsiblities as parents. Are we not collectively conned into believing that you can have a house in the country, a fast paced career, kids, and climb to the very edge of conceivable difficulty and risk. I think the choice of parenthood should preclude establishing new standards on the very cutting edge of difficulty and risk.

[Dan_Petersen]

Jman, congratulations to you on your recent fatherhood. I suppose I have to confess that I have raised five (a "blended" family). They are all adults now, and we have three grandchildren and counting.

I can see my last comment was awkward and incomplete, and doesn’t really cover what I had in mind. I’ll try again. I think that if a parent gives up something that they love for their children, a strange tension is born. Some parents can handle that negative tension with grace and others cannot. Children, I believe, can sense that tension, no matter how well a parent tries to cover it, and some don’t try very hard. That is the “taint” that I have in mind.

I’ll make one more observation that I can’t resist. Becoming a parent is like the start of what appears to be a straightforward ascent. It isn’t, and it gets harder as you near the top. It also never ends. Trite, I suppose, but very true.

 

 

[Jman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pope:

Climbing a rock is, I'm afraid, a little less special than we seem to be suggesting. It's a selfish act of indulgence. You're not changing the world, you're not making your community better, you're just hanging on the side of a rock, standing on top of a mountain. Fun, challenging, rewarding, a healthy lifestyle.... sure. But if you need to risk your life and climb extreme alpine walls just to feel happy, if you have trouble finding a sense of accomplishment in your life without dangling from some half-frozen water-ice pillar, and if you find ways to rationalize participation in these activities while your family sits home unsure of whether they'll ever see you again.....guess what? You're a selfish and pitiful person. You don't deserve your children, and I don't think you're setting any kind of example for them other than demonstrating that mountain climbing is an intoxicating form of recreation.

---

Pope-

My wife says: "THANK YOU!!!"

Well said.

Dan-

Thanks. I appreciate your observations. I don't believe climbing should be given up altogether, but it can be enjoyed by the whole family whithin reason(read Retro's post, albeit crazy IMHO). My wife intends to join me soon and my son too when he is old enough to go beyond 'hiking'. I have much to learn still as a parent and I'm trying my best not to have any regrets or create that "tension" (which I actually have worried about before). You're right - it does never end, hence my comment about committment. I look forward to the adventure wherever it may take me...

[This message has been edited by Jman (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Doug]

Wow. There has been a lot of good stuff posted in this thread. I have also recently become a father. Not in the traditional sense either. We adopted an infant at birth last December. Our daughter is now 9 months old. I've been climbing for about 10 years now, though more "seriously" in the last 5.

I must admit that I didn't give it much thought prior to adopting, but I do now feel an awesome responibility to be around for her. My wife doesn't climb and it really helps to have us together as much as possible to help her develop.

That being said, my wife is aslo extremely supportive of me and my interest in climbing. She really has no problem with me taking off every so often to go out for a day or even a weekend. She understands. Her dad was a climber of some note back in the 50's through the 70's, and in between climbing trips they seemed to do a pretty good job raising 8 kids. I guess it's in her context to understand the why's of climbing without directly participating herself.

I'd hate to leave my daughter with no dad. I know I'll continue to climb, but it's definately slipped a couple of places on the priority scale. At this point in my life I don't feel to make any statements of leave any legacy with my climbing. Just a great way to get out and connect with nature and myself and friends.

[pope]

I don't claim to know everything about being a dad, and I certainly continue to climb, but I think there's a difference between hiking up Mt. Hood on the weekend or clipping bolts along I-90, and doing extreme climbing professionally. Climbing extreme alpine professionally means you'll have to turn heads, and that means going to the limit. In mountaineering, the limit requires that you invest a piece of your butt, and, quite frankly, I believe that's not fair to your kids.

On the other hand, if you climb at your limit on sketchy pro, or if you solo, not professionally but simply for your gratification, or to somehow "validate" your existence, then you shouldn't have kids. They deserve to grow up with more than a memory of what a great weekend warrior you were.

[Fairweather]

As a father of a 15 yr old and a 12 year old, and a climber for over 20 years I say you can have the best of both worlds. My 12 year old has been to Muir a couple times since he was 8, and when he was 10 we climbed a minor peak together in the Wrangell Mountains in Alaska. (Donohoe Peak, right under Mount Blackburn...awesome place) Hundreds of miles of hikes, scrambles, and snow climbs. He wants to climb Rainier, but I won't take him until he's 15 or 16. I still climb with others when doing more difficult climbs, but I certainly don't climb at the level I would without my first responsibility. I feel children are a responsibility that should preclude any unreasonable risk-taking. That level is different for everyone, but for me Mckinley or any Himalayan adventures will wait until my kids are in college. (I started my family when I was 23, so I'll still have a "window" to do big things later...I hope.) Why not include the kids at the "lower level" of mountain adventure and do the rest when your responsibilities lessen later on? I know that when I'm freezing my ass off up on Rainier at 2am my thoughts drift to hiking through Grand Park with my children, and I think to myself, "what am I doing here?" As far as Lowe and Hargraves, I feel they failed their primary responsibility which was to their children.

[Latch_Holeflaffer]

Great thread. I have been thinking about this very topic for months. I have been climbing for almost thirty years. When I was a youngster I gave no thought to my own safety as it related to others. Free soloing, R and a few X runouts were part of my regular climbing diet. I always climbed carefully, I did not want to die but, the risk was worth the reward. When I got married twenty years ago, not much changed, I was perhaps a bit more cautious , but I figured my wife was a big girl and could take care of herself. When my daughter was born thirteen years ago things changed in a big way. I no longer free soloed. OK, maybe once, the west ridge of Pigeon Spire is such a lovely route. I really started to think about the consequences of my actions. I tried not to run it out. I turned down offers to go to the Himalaya . It’s not so much that my climbing changed that much, just my mind set. About five years ago I quit climbing. Surfing, Skiing and Cycling seemed safer and maybe I was a bit burned out on climbing. Last November my daughter asked if she could try climbing. I was conflicted. I started when I was thirteen. Why couldn’t she. Is it safe? Am I leading her into danger? I decided that If you go into climbing with a knowledge of the risks and try to mitigate those risks as much as possible. That the reward is worth it. I have sense rediscovered one of the great joys of my life, but better. We rock climb together every week, I am helping her climb through the grades as I regain some lost skills and strength. The synergy between us is indescribable. I know that climbing is a dangerous activity and that we are putting ourselves at risk. I now wear a helmet, most of the time. I never skip a bolt even if it’s silly. I put in pro every fifteen to twenty feet weather I need it or not. My gear is all new. Climbing can bring great rewards to an individual and to a relationship. I can’t imagine a life without climbing. An individual has to make their own decision as to the balance between reward and risk. If you stifle a need within yourself something within you will wither and die. Make you own decisions. I choose to climb.

[Andrew_Grove]

Latch,

Well said.

Pope,

I respectfully disagree that climbing is just recreation and nothing special. For you that might be the case.

For some of us, however, it is a way of life and part of who we are and where we live. It is as important to us as air, water, and food. Each of us makes our decisions and balances as best we can sometimes conflicting choices and committments.

I am a parent. My daughter, now 17, has climbed with me for about 11 years, including multi-pitch trad routes in Canada and elsewhere. In those experiences, she gains a perspective on the world that few other children have opportunity for, she experiences personal growth in ways that more 'traditional' lifestyles and activities don't provide, and she gets to see her Dad where he is most himself and at home. If all she saw was me trying to fit into the American-dream mold, she would never know her real Dad. Instead, we know each other and bond as Father and Daughter to a degree that wouldn't happen otherwise.

best,

Andrew

"But to snuff it without knowing who you are and what you are capable of, I can't think of anything sadder than that." Mo Anthoine in Feeding the Rat, by Al Alvarez, 1988.

[dan_e]

It did not take me long to realize climbing was a selfish activity, of course this did not stop me from climbing, but I do not have any children.

I think most of the postings by climbers who have children are just trying to fool themselves, they know deep inside that climbing is selfish and exposes them to risks that ordinary people do not face. It's easy to say "you can get killed crossing the street, or by falling and hitting your head on the bathtub". Still if you climb in any fashion, be it sport or extreme alpinism, you are increasing your risk of death.

In my many years of climbing I've pushed things to the edge, had a few close calls, including my recent accident which easily could have killed me. My non-climbing friends cannot rattle off a list of how many times they almost got killed.

Other comments about how policemen and firemen take risks and could be killed CANNOT be used as comparison to climbing parents and considering recent events, even mentioning that is absurd and an insult to those who lost their lives TRYING TO PROTECT AND SAVE PEOPLES LIVES! Damn, that pissed me off!

 

Dan E.