No power

[ivan]

 

What you are talking about is social interaction.

yes, but in a republic/democracy, where every person is, at least in theory, a part of the government, all social interactions carry much larger implications. my expectations of the two-toof beyotch ringing up my groceries at my local safeway ain't too much different from the 3-piece suit wearing mother-fuckers working in the capitol building in me n' my neighbors' names: do your job, recognize i exist, don't fucking jerk me around (same as every other relationship i'm a part of)

 

government in a republic is just the aggregate of all these smaller relationships.

[tvashtarkatena]

i can address sensible washingtons critiques and accusations, which have been numerous, point by point. i also have had first hand dealings with their tactics, many of which have been flat out unethical.

 

sensible washington is mainly one guy named steve sarich and a couple of his pals, BTW. they've waged an active misinformation campaign to confuse voters which can be readily debunked.

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[mattp]

i can address sensible washingtons critiques and accusations, which have been numerous, point by point. i also have had first hand dealings with their tactics, many of which have been flat out unethical.

At last. Somebody who can address these critiques and accusations? I'm sincere: let's hear it.

[tvashtarkatena]

u provide what you've been told by them and ill respond. theyve been pretty much all over the map.

 

if u need a general education on 502 including the initiative itself, www.newapproachwa.org

 

one anecdote (there are so many) SWs website advised its '100% volunteer' signature gatherers to sign on as 1240 paid singature gatherers and also collect signatures for their initiative (which never came close to making the ballot - they have no credibility and therefor no donation funding), stating that this was sanctionedby the 1240 campaign. Hmmm, I thought, so I called the 1240 campaign coordinator. She was PISSED. by end of day every paid signature gatherer who'd been engaging in this practice had been fired without pay and their sig sheets thrown away. ie, SW lied to their volunteers, and their supporters regarding their much touted 'no paid signature gatherer, all grass roots' movement.

 

small wonder why no one gives them any money.

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[olyclimber]

Omfg I'll be in my debunk!

[olyclimber]

Really sorry if you don't get that one.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

True. But you're also like the inverse of my crazy uncle Warren who thinks Obama is a commy fascist.

 

meh. its called tongue n cheek. u dish it out often enough. kinda weird that u cant pick up on it. Sky's got a PhD n he doesnt seem to have that blind spot.

[rob]

I'm pretty sure I've never accused Romney of being "unamerican"

[tvashtarkatena]

Back to our friend at Sensible WA:

 

Sarich's misinformation has been focused on three main areas:

 

1) Minors will be arrested more often under I 502. Why would this be? I 502 has a 21 age limit, like alcohol. Pot would remain illegal for minors. Same as it is now. Sarich has talked of minors getting felony charges - a fabrication. Ironically, pot is much easier to get for minors today precisely because it is not truly regulated, as is alcohol and tobacco. I 502 would eventually make pot as difficult to get as those two other regulated substances.

 

2) Medical marijuana users (all users, really) will be arrested for exceeding the 5ng/ml whole blood THC limit, because THC stays in your system so long.

 

Also bullshit, for several reasons.

 

a) The blood test is for active THC only (the kind that gets you high). Active THC does not stay in your blood long. After smoking a 'standard' medicinal joint (which is a lot of THC!), the average person would OK to drive within about 4 hours. Inactive THC - or carboxy-THC (THC-COOH) does stay in your system for up to a month. The blood test, which must be administered by a medical professional (the arresting officer actually never sees the result - a judge does) does not test for this - it doesn't get you high.

 

b) Many studies (see newapproachwa.org) have shown that > 5ng/ml whole blood active THC levels significantly increase the risk of accident. Sarich essentially argues that medicinal marijuana patients should be allowed to drive impaired. We, law enforcement, and most of the citizens of WA respectfully disagree.

 

c) Police must have probable cause (observation of impaired driving or non-street legal vehicle) to pull someone over. I 502 will not change this. Drive a legal vehicle safely and you won't get pulled over.

 

d) Finally, medical marijuana patients do not have arrest immunity currently. If a med patient's grow up is busted, they will be arrested, booked, and appear before a judge before they can present their proof - a doctor's authorization. If their condition is manufactured - chronic back pain, etc - they stand a good chance of being convicted.

 

I 502 actually grants arrest immunity to medical marijuana patients (this is the only direct affect on our current medical marijuana law, which remains otherwise untouched by I 502). A patient will simply be able to show their authorization to the arresting officer and avoid arrest on the spot.

 

3) I 502's 40 g possession limit. 40 g is a lot of pot. Sarich argues for a limit that exceeds a pound. Given that both the public and feds wish to eliminate illegal pot trafficking and all the violence associated with it (which is disturbingly high - my bro is a defense attorney in Humboldt County), neither endorsers nor voters would go for the right to cart around a bale of weed.

 

Sarich's is supported by 3 small special interest groups -

 

1) currently unregulated gray market growers who want to keep things the way they are - and maintain the ability to sell uninspected weed (dangerous molds and mildews are common in today's med marijuana) and unregulated edibles - unlike any other food business in WA.

 

2) Defense attorneys who want to maintain today's current grey area for MJ DUIs, and avoid the bright line 5ng/ml limit - despite the fact that we've had a bright line blood alcohol limit for decades, and

 

3) Pot smokers who just want to be high all the time, including time behind the wheel of a car.

 

A lot of folks do not take Sarich seriously, and it isn't because they are close minded, its because he has proven his lack of accuracy and integrity over and over again. Sarich cares nothing about the civil liberties issues with MJ - high incarceration rates, 3:1 discrimination against African Americans, huge life cost of a marijuana arrest. If he did, he'd support I 502, despite his objections about the 21 and over age limit and the DUI provision.

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Really sorry if you don't get that one.

 

"Paging Dr. H. Doctor H, to the joke explanation ward, stat."

[rob]

1) currently unregulated gray market growers who want to keep things the way they are - and maintain the ability to sell uninspected weed (dangerous molds and mildews are common in today's med marijuana) and unregulated edibles - unlike any other food business in WA.

 

I didn't know about this "dangerous mold" thing (this is the first Ive heard of this "common" problem) but it sounds like you're saying medical marijuana patients will only be allowed to buy medicine from licensed retailers (i.e. Medical co-ops will close down, or become licensed retailers). Is this the case, and does this mean medical patients will start paying the new "sin tax" on marijuana if they choose to buy at such a newly licensed co-op? Or will medical grow co-ops still exist to supply low cost medicine to patients without the capacity to grow themselves, and will they be exempt from this new tax?

 

Also, what will I-502 do to combat this common dangerous mold problem? Will marijuana be inspected regularly and what method will they be using to detect dangerous mold, how often will the inspect for it, and what concentration of "dangerous mold" will constitute a failing inspection?

Edited November 1, 2012 by rob

[rob]

Also, I'm curious if you have examples of Washington courts prosecuting a medical marijuana patient with a valid prescription from a licensed medical provider because the court felt it wasnt a good enough reason (i.e. back pain). Or are you saying you'd have to prove in court that you really have back pain? I.E discuss your personal medical condition to a judge so that he can decide if it's real? That would be terrifying, please tell me that's not happening.

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by rob

[ivan]

Back to our friend at Sensible WA:

 

Sarich's misinformation has been focused on three main areas:

 

1) Minors will be arrested more often under I 502. Why would this be? I 502 has a 21 age limit, like alcohol. Pot would remain illegal for minors. Same as it is now. Sarich has talked of minors getting felony charges - a fabrication. Ironically, pot is much easier to get for minors today precisely because it is not truly regulated, as is alcohol and tobacco. I 502 would eventually make pot as difficult to get as those two other regulated substances.

 

2) Medical marijuana users (all users, really) will be arrested for exceeding the 5ng/ml whole blood THC limit, because THC stays in your system so long.

 

Also bullshit, for several reasons.

 

a) The blood test is for active THC only (the kind that gets you high). Active THC does not stay in your blood long. After smoking a 'standard' medicinal joint (which is a lot of THC!), the average person would OK to drive within about 4 hours. Inactive THC - or carboxy-THC (THC-COOH) does stay in your system for up to a month. The blood test, which must be administered by a medical professional (the arresting officer actually never sees the result - a judge does) does not test for this - it doesn't get you high.

 

b) Many studies (see newapproachwa.org) have shown that > 5ng/ml whole blood active THC levels significantly increase the risk of accident. Sarich essentially argues that medicinal marijuana patients should be allowed to drive impaired. We, law enforcement, and most of the citizens of WA respectfully disagree.

 

c) Police must have probable cause (observation of impaired driving or non-street legal vehicle) to pull someone over. I 502 will not change this. Drive a legal vehicle safely and you won't get pulled over.

 

d) Finally, medical marijuana patients do not have arrest immunity currently. If a med patient's grow up is busted, they will be arrested, booked, and appear before a judge before they can present their proof - a doctor's authorization. If their condition is manufactured - chronic back pain, etc - they stand a good chance of being convicted.

 

I 502 actually grants arrest immunity to medical marijuana patients (this is the only direct affect on our current medical marijuana law, which remains otherwise untouched by I 502). A patient will simply be able to show their authorization to the arresting officer and avoid arrest on the spot.

 

3) I 502's 40 g possession limit. 40 g is a lot of pot. Sarich argues for a limit that exceeds a pound. Given that both the public and feds wish to eliminate illegal pot trafficking and all the violence associated with it (which is disturbingly high - my bro is a defense attorney in Humboldt County), neither endorsers nor voters would go for the right to cart around a bale of weed.

 

Sarich's is supported by 3 small special interest groups -

 

1) currently unregulated gray market growers who want to keep things the way they are - and maintain the ability to sell uninspected weed (dangerous molds and mildews are common in today's med marijuana) and unregulated edibles - unlike any other food business in WA.

 

2) Defense attorneys who want to maintain today's current grey area for MJ DUIs, and avoid the bright line 5ng/ml limit - despite the fact that we've had a bright line blood alcohol limit for decades, and

 

3) Pot smokers who just want to be high all the time, including time behind the wheel of a car.

 

A lot of folks do not take Sarich seriously, and it isn't because they are close minded, its because he has proven his lack of accuracy and integrity over and over again. Sarich cares nothing about the civil liberties issues with MJ - high incarceration rates, 3:1 discrimination against African Americans, huge life cost of a marijuana arrest. If he did, he'd support I 502, despite his objections about the 21 and over age limit and the DUI provision.

for a defense of weed, sure sounds like it was writ by a coke-head

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't know about this "dangerous mold" thing (this is the first Ive heard of this "common" problem) but it sounds like you're saying medical marijuana patients will only be allowed to buy medicine from licensed retailers (i.e. Medical co-ops will close down, or become licensed retailers). Is this the case, and does this mean medical patients will start paying the new "sin tax" on marijuana if they choose to buy at such a newly licensed co-op? Or will medical grow co-ops still exist to supply low cost medicine to patients without the capacity to grow themselves, and will they be exempt from this new tax?

 

No. The current medical MJ procurement system: designated providers (dispensaries), home grow ops, and 10 person coop grow ops, would remain in place as they are now under I 502. I 502 provides arrest immunity for medical MJ patients. There is no other affect on the existing Med MJ law: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=69.50.101. I 502 would provide another, regulated source of pot for Med MJ patients should they choose to take advantage of it.

 

 

Also, what will I-502 do to combat this common dangerous mold problem that I didnt know existed? Will marijuana be inspected regularly and what method will they be using to detect dangerous mold, how often will the inspect for it, and what concentration of "dangerous mold" will constitute a failing inspection?

 

"Sec. 11. (1) On a schedule determined by the state

liquor control board, every licensed marijuana producer and processor

must submit representative samples of marijuana, useable marijuana, or

marijuana-infused products produced or processed by the licensee to an

independent, third-party testing laboratory meeting the accreditation

requirements established by the state liquor control board, for

inspection and testing to certify compliance with standards adopted by

the state liquor control board. Any sample remaining after testing

shall be destroyed by the laboratory or returned to the licensee.

(2) Licensees must submit the results of this inspection and

testing to the state liquor control board on a form developed by the

state liquor control board.

(3) If a representative sample inspected and tested under this

section does not meet the applicable standards adopted by the state

liquor control board, the entire lot from which the sample was taken

must be destroyed."

 

The details of inspection will be worked out during a 1 year long rule making period. A rule making period is standard for any legislation. The state wouldn't, of course, spend the time and money to make detailed rules of implementation until the law actually passes.

 

Regarding mold, here's one of many websites that discusses it. I can't vouch for this particular site, I just googled 'marijuana growing mold': http://www.maryjanesgarden.com/growing/mold.php

 

That's as far as my pay grade takes me...never grown the stuff myself.

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

Sweet! Thanks, I was curious about the tax implications but it sounds like they've really thought this thing out. Also, I think it's great to have a driving limit. Who knows what the "right" limit is, so it seems best to start somewhere and go from there. This is all new, after all.

 

I hope it passes

[tvashtarkatena]

Also, I'm curious if you have examples of Washington courts prosecuting a medical marijuana patient with a valid prescription from a licensed medical provider because the court felt it wasnt a good enough reason (i.e. back pain). Or are you saying you'd have to prove in court that you really have back pain? I.E discuss your personal medical condition to a judge so that he can decide if it's real? That would be terrifying, please tell me that's not happening.

 

It's real: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003689817_webmedicalmar02.html

The appeals court overturned the conviction, but after how much suffering and cash? This guy had glaucoma - a condition explicitly listed under our Med MJ law. How much harder would it have gone for him if he had gotten an authorization from Dr. Greenthumb (who's likely in violation of the provision prohibiting medical MJ authorizations from being a practitioner's sole practice), for 'chronic back pain'? Anyhoo, most WA prosecutions have involved dispensaries, but google 'medical marijuana convictions washington' should yield a media history of what's gone down for both patients and providers so far.

 

All great questions, BTW. Stuff every med MJ patient really needs to know, but many are unaware of the risks they face under current law. I 502 will remove such risks by providing a) arrest immunity for Med MJ patients and b) a new choice between Med dispensaries and arguably safer retail outlets.

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

I 502 complete language:

 

http://sos.wa.gov/_assets/elections/initiatives/i502.pdf

[rob]

Also, I'm curious if you have examples of Washington courts prosecuting a medical marijuana patient with a valid prescription from a licensed medical provider because the court felt it wasnt a good enough reason (i.e. back pain). Or are you saying you'd have to prove in court that you really have back pain? I.E discuss your personal medical condition to a judge so that he can decide if it's real? That would be terrifying, please tell me that's not happening.

 

It's real: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003689817_webmedicalmar02.html

 

Hanson didn't obtain authorization from a doctor until after his business, Manor Lodge Motel, was raided by a law enforcement task force that seized 34 mature pot plants on Aug. 24, 2004.

 

Superior Court Judge John David Frazier ruled that Hanson did not qualify for the exemption because he obtained the authorization after the raid...

 

I suspect this was his biggest problem.

 

However, it's interesting that the appeals court said it didn't matter. I think that's a great sign, and probably a great precedent.

 

edit: and a good example of how much simpler I-502 will make everything.

Edited November 1, 2012 by rob

[tvashtarkatena]

for a defense of weed, sure sounds like it was writ by a coke-head

 

Sarich's strategy has been to chip away enough of I 502's narrow poll lead (if, in fact, that actually translates to real votes) to defeat it with a misinformation campaign. He's kind of a local, penniless version of Frank Schubert, the organizer behind all four efforts to defeat same sex marriage in WA, WI, MD, and ME. Sadly, Schubert has $40 million backing him.

 

Ironically, 2 years ago the ACLU actually offered to review Sarich's proposed initiative proposal for him prior to a signature gathering effort, and he agreed...but never got back to us. It was a joke, of course. It never even came remotely close to gathering enough signatures to make it on the ballot, thankfully. His second try failed as well. He's really not a serious, open, and ethical public advocate in any sense. Most of SW 'team' have bailed on him and splintered into their own efforts to snipe at I 502 from the sidelines - the've even taken to heckling at ACLU fund raisers (from personal experience - but I have a tried and true method of dealing with such situations swiftly and effectively).

 

Always look at the endorsement list to see who's behind any campaign. I 502's list speaks for itself.

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

A lot of dispensaries here and in other states have operated outside the law and have gotten raided by the feds as a result. That doesn't inspire confidence in a public that's still leery about drug reform, and it also could provoke a stronger federal and state response, particularly if Republicans take the State House and or White House. Sure, regulation is a bad word these days, but it is the path towards normalizing societies attitude towards pot with regards to other, legal controlled substances like booze (which actually causes far more societal harm)

 

The in-your-face pot leaf motif movement has failed to gain any traction with the larger public. After all, you ASK people to vote for reform, you don't DEMAND their vote. I've convinced several little old ladies who would have NEVER voted to legalize weed to change their minds with just a few minutes of conversation. Plus, who doesn't hate hippies? Although they like to claim the mantle, they do not even remotely represent today's pot user.

[tvashtarkatena]

Hanson didn't obtain authorization from a doctor until after his business, Manor Lodge Motel, was raided by a law enforcement task force that seized 34 mature pot plants on Aug. 24, 2004.

 

Superior Court Judge John David Frazier ruled that Hanson did not qualify for the exemption because he obtained the authorization after the raid...

 

I suspect this was his biggest problem.

 

LOL. Also he's limited to 15 plants under Med MJ. Knowledge is power and all that.

 

You can imagine the SWAT team that hit this poor old geezer's crib. It's a wonder he didn't keel over on the spot. What a fawkin' waste of taxes!

 

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Pete_H]

What does 502 say about how MJ would be distributed? I read an article that argued that while decriminalizing possession, under 502, MJ would still be illegal to distribute. Which, obviously, would create a contradiction making the law more susceptible to federal attack.

[tvashtarkatena]

Misinformation. Fully covered: licensed, taxed, and regulated private stores supplied by licensed, taxed, and regulated growers. Obviously, distribution across state lines is not permitted.

 

Sec. 4. (1) There shall be a marijuana producer's

license to produce marijuana for sale at wholesale to marijuana

processors and other marijuana producers, regulated by the state

liquor control board and subject to annual renewal. The production,

possession, delivery, distribution, and sale of marijuana in

accordance with the provisions of this act and the rules adopted to

implement and enforce it, by a validly licensed marijuana producer,

shall not be a criminal or civil offense under Washington state law.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm happy to answer questions, but using you PC's 'find' feature on the i502 link I provided would probably be quicker in most cases, cuz that's pretty much what I'm doing.

[G-spotter]

WE SHOULD SWITCH TO TESLA WIRELESS POWER AND THEN NO POWER LINES WOULD GET BLOWN DOWN OR FLOODED

 

debunque c'est