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      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
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alpenlady

never mind

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BEEEEEEuWooo WHHHHHIIIIIP! :rawk::rocken::PIMAG0426.jpg
Fresh crab and garlic candied ginger carrots. Topped w organic radish & chives. YUM! :moondance::brew:

 

Beatard Heaven!

 

Come and visit. I cook you good food!!!

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Sometimes, you have the brush in your hand. You can paint the desires of your heart.

 

Just be sure to do exactly that... Paint from the heart...

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:) Well from the looks of it you're having the most fun tuesday morning of anyone i know. i have a nice pic of an avy that rolled down newton creek on hood this past week, wondering where to post it so here is.

 

CS-Hood-02057.jpg

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Youth Dynamic Adventures, based out of Plain, Washington, is polishing the rock in the Icicle by bringing clients climbing in their street shoes, and they are teaching and using unsafe procedures!!!! How can we stop this from happening? (Not a rhetorical question, I need advice here!)

 

I was climbing at the slabs on the right of Clamshell Cave in the Icicle on Sunday when I met a large party led by Youth Dynamic Adventures based out of Plain, Washington.

 

I was appalled to listen as the clients were told to toprope the slab in their street shoes. They were instructed to find edges and put the edge of their shoe on them. One was wearing Keds and the other jogging shoes. Then they were taught to belay, tied in, and unsuccessfully attempted to "climb" the slab.

 

When I said something to the trip leader about how that practice will polish the rock and an environmental education organization should be teaching stewardship and leading by example, not desecrating our resources, he said to me "There's nothing you can do about it." His excuse was that they didn't have enough money to buy shoes for all of their clients.

 

Leavenworth Mountain Sports rents shoes in sizes 4.5 - 13 for $10 per day! YDA charges $185 per person for their rock climbing trip! So even if YDA doesn't own enough shoes for their clients, they could easily rent them. On their website they are advertising to people that they will get to go rock climbing, but you can't climb those slabs in street shoes so doesn't that seem like false advertising?

 

If you are going to run a business, you need to run it right, and that includes providing the necessary equipment for your clients to have the experience that you are selling - namely, rock climbing. Polishing up our shared resource of the rock to save a few bucks just seems wrong to me. Is anyone with me on this one? Or am I just insanely uptight? I would like to take my nieces, nephews, children, and grandchildren to the Icicle to learn to climb. Clamshell is a great spot for beginners and I won't be able to do that if the slabs are polished to glass by these cheapskates.

 

I also have big concerns about this organization's safety practices - the leader taught his clients to hip belay as a backup belay for the ATC belay he had just taught. And - he taught it incorrectly. He taught his clients to wrap the rope under their armpit, behind their back, around the other side under that armpit, and then hold it across the front of their body. No hips involved. What??? Now I am no hip belay expert but that looked very dangerous to the belayer. If he or she were actually even able to hold the fall I would anticipate broken ribs for the belayer. The hip belay even when done properly by an expert is NOT THAT SAFE, and done incorrectly by a novice climber wearing no gloves - !!!!! There is a reason the ATC was invented, and they had a second one lying on the ground unused right beside the so-called "backup belayer".

 

Climbing is anarchic by nature and I don't want it any other way, but there has got to be something that we as a climbing community can do to stop these destructive practices by this particular company. Specifically to get them to stop having their clients climb in street shoes, although the dangerous not-really-a-hip belay "backup" needs to go, too.

 

Ideas, anyone?????

 

I'll try to bring this thread back from being a spray fest ...

 

As someone who was part of a climbing climb in high school in the late 70s early 80s that between us had maybe two pairs of EBs and a couple of pairs of Robin's klutter shoes while everyone else climbed in keds, mtn boots, etc. While at the same time used a hip belay. I can say with out reservation that your observations and feelings are grossly out of line. People have been climbing in all types of shoes for longer than anyone on this board have been alive. Rocks get polished just as badly by shoes as they do with hand grease and chalk (if not worse). While I do not know much about the group in question but many groups do not have the funds to have the latest and greatest equipment. Sure having it might make the experience better but if they were being safe who cares - especially if they were having fun.

 

As for the comment about the hip belay. It is actually quite safe and quite effective. In fact I used it last week with a friend who I gave my belay device to as he was traveling and only grabbed his harness. And the horror of it all, I used a biner brake to rappel.

 

Now about the concerns about the location of the rope while hip belaying. Without actually seeing it there may or may not have been a problem. But

if standing having the rope up off the hips is better than right on the hips. But at least he was showing them an alternative method to belay and was backing up the primary belayer. Many climbers today would be screwed if they dropper their gri-gri or belay device.

 

So all in all I am not sure there is any reason for concern. However, if you truly have concerns I would suggest that you contact the director of the group. I am sure they would welcome a donation so they can buy shoes for the kids so the rock does not get polished.

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I break from this site for like 14 months, come back, and find that not a single fucking thing has changed.

 

We get a break from you for 14 months, and when you come back we find you still fucking haven't changed.

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I was hoping for some helpful advice but forgot this is cc.com so I will just be attacked and nothing useful will come of posting here. And, maybe I'm the one who's wrong here anyway.

Just re-read Dredereks advice below and relax. For myself, I think that there are several issues with what you say, not the least of which is the selfishness you show. Maybe you learned via osmosis, but the rest of us didn't. Having professionals teach beginners helps minimize the death and destruction noobs cause themselves without it. And the soft rubber on rock shoes will polish rock faster than street shoes. Then to complete your display of selfishness when you are not well received here after displaying such a display of selfish entitlement, you toss it off like it's everyone else that is wrong and you leave. A quick note here to you: it's you. It's not us.

 

Not knowing you or the guides skill level, you could have wandered over and helped him with the hip belay and might have learned something new yourself, or help someone else to learn something new as well. Guides in Europe still toss on a standing shoulder belay for clients in the alps. (it makes me shiver just thinking of it)

Well you're not wrong - this is cc.com. Everyone gets the business at some point. Just focus on the positives and learn to ignore the negatives. And checkout the post to tr ratio before you take someones comments too seriously.

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No comment on the polished stone bit... but I do agree with the OP that if an organization is taking your $185 dollars for a day of climbing instruction they should at least provide you with a pair of real rock shoes.

 

Teaching a total noober how to hip belay their first day out seems less important to me than making sure they can operate a standard belay device.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Teaching them the advanced technique of how to "hip belay" around your rib cage should be the first thing they learn about belaying of course. I mean, holy shit, what if they suddenly found themselves in a different parallel dimension in which the Munter hitch suddenly didn't exist?

 

What if they dropped their tube device before clipping it to their belay loop? I guess they would have to bend over and pick it up? Again, this strikes me as an advanced technique. Better to teach them how to pound pins and move in coils.

 

 

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When I attended the Mountaineers basic climbing class the only way we learned how to belay was using a hip belay. I didn't die or kill anybody on belay.

 

Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

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Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

 

Especially kids. I'd rather have kids scrambling all over the icicle hip-belaying each other in tennis shoes than not at all.

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Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

 

Especially kids. I'd rather have kids scrambling all over the icicle hip-belaying each other in tennis shoes than not at all.

 

As if an organization charging $185 can't afford to have ATC's and pear biners to loan to their students.

 

 

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My Dad learned to climb from the mountaineers. He tought me all of the "old" techniques first. His rational, and the one the mountaineers tought at the time, was that it was best to learn how to perform the essential techniques as if you had minimal or no special equipment. Sure there are many better tools today, but it's always good to have the basic should you drop your belay device/harness/gear rack/what-have-you.

Edited by jordansahls

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I think alpenlady's problem is that young chavs with "street" shoes were being taught to belay. They were probably wearing hoodies too. Geraldo Riviera will tell you that such children WILL be shot.

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Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

 

Especially kids. I'd rather have kids scrambling all over the icicle hip-belaying each other in tennis shoes than not at all.

 

As if an organization charging $185 can't afford to have ATC's and pear biners to loan to their students.

 

 

This is all a 3rd or 4th hand discussion. What did they get for $185?

 

Class time before the field trip too? Do they get more practice time/field trips? :confused:

 

Every organization figures out a price to charge. Sometimes it's excessive sometimes not.

 

In any case learning and practicing a hip belay first sounds like a good idea. I had to learn how to do a dulfersitz rap before I could use equipment. I've actually used it 3 or 4 times when we were trying to save weight on a trip (rope but almost no other gear). Forgetting or loosing gear is one of the risks of climbing.

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Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

 

Especially kids. I'd rather have kids scrambling all over the icicle hip-belaying each other in tennis shoes than not at all.

 

As if an organization charging $185 can't afford to have ATC's and pear biners to loan to their students.

 

 

No no no, go read the original post. They had proper belay devices (ATCs), they were just being taught the hip belay as a novelty backup option afterwards.

 

Also, the $185 figure people are throwing around comes from their website. It's a 2 1/2 day program including white water rafting. Not a bad deal.

 

During this 2-1/2 day trip, enjoy a day of Rock climbing and a day of Whitewater rafting. The power of this trip lies not only in its ability to draw a group together, but also to give participants the confidence to step out and face life's challenges head on.

Trip Details

Ages: 11-19

Participants: 12-15

Cost: $185

Date Range: May-July

More Info

Multiple Groups of 12-15, East Side trips: Rafting on the Wenatchee River and Rock Climbing in Icicle Canyon.

Edited by rob

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I break from this site for like 14 months, come back, and find that not a single fucking thing has changed.

 

You expected it to? :lmao:

Somebody's been climbing without a helmet lately!

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Learning how to climb without spending big bucks at the climbing store is a good thing. :yoda:

 

Especially kids. I'd rather have kids scrambling all over the icicle hip-belaying each other in tennis shoes than not at all.

 

As if an organization charging $185 can't afford to have ATC's and pear biners to loan to their students.

 

 

No no no, go read the original post. They had proper belay devices (ATCs), they were just being taught the hip belay as a novelty backup option afterwards.

 

Also, the $185 figure people are throwing around comes from their website. It's a 2 1/2 day program including white water rafting. Not a bad deal.

 

During this 2-1/2 day trip, enjoy a day of Rock climbing and a day of Whitewater rafting. The power of this trip lies not only in its ability to draw a group together, but also to give participants the confidence to step out and face life's challenges head on.

Trip Details

Ages: 11-19

Participants: 12-15

Cost: $185

Date Range: May-July

More Info

Multiple Groups of 12-15, East Side trips: Rafting on the Wenatchee River and Rock Climbing in Icicle Canyon.

 

Cool. I'm good with the hip belay backup as long as they clip into something.

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