philfort Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by RobBob: One observation I have after viewing a small sample size of middle eastern Muslims (in engineering school in the late 70s): They cheated like Hell. .... Maybe it was the middle eastern culture and nothing to do with the religion, but those guys were unabashed cheaters. Hmm, hate to say it, but I certainly got the same impression in engineering at my school, in the mid-90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: Now they are a backward and uneducated lot, unable to work technological things without western assistance. Makes you wonder about Islam and what it has done for the followers of Mohammed..... Uh, maybe you don't know the same Muslims as DFA, 'cause they are mostly structural engineers, small-business owners, and computer techie types. For such a small handful of Muslims, there's sure a lot of smart folks among them. How could this be?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: quote:Originally posted by Fence Sitter: here's a question for you... do you think the muslim extremists are racist? think long and hard about that... [Roll Eyes] Here's Webster's definition: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. your point being? since sept. 11th, more australians have been killed than americans...(most notably bali) so it isn't jsut about american then is it smart ass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 I'm targeting the group as a whole in the middle east, not the few here in the U.S. Besides, any fool can manage a 7-Eleven...care for a slushy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: I'm targeting the group as a whole in the middle east, not the few here in the U.S. Besides, any fool can manage a 7-Eleven...care for a slushy? Nice troll, you troll. Nap time ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JGowans: - No, the only reason I'm aware is because either greed tripped up the perpetrators or someone with a conscience inside the organization blew the whistle. Our institutions are a veneer of law that's propped up enough to keep the impression that the government really cares.] What happened with Enron was that they secured business relationships that would normally be underwritten with cash or other hard assets with stock. They sweetened the deal by stating that if the stock ever fell below a certain price, they'd hand over X million or billion in cash or equivalents to the partner. One of the elites you mentioned (a securities analyst/fund manager) perused the (publically available) financial statements issued by Enron (as required by the SEC/law) and became suspicious of the earnings generated by the partnerships listed on those statements (created by Fastow and co.) He did more research, uncovered what looked like a bunch of questionable profits, and started shorting the stock, big-time. And, like anyone shorting an overvalued stock, started spreading the bad news about Enron's earnings to anyone who would listen in the hopes that they'd sell the stock, bringing the value of the stock down further and increasing his profits all the more. As this information started to get the attention of a wider audience and the authorities began to investigate, the stock took a dive and all of a suden the folks who took Enron stock in lieu of cash started demanding their money. Enron didn't have the cash on hand to cover these massive liabilities and filed for bankruptcy. The SEC is understaffed and can not, with present staffing levels, investigate every bit of minutia in every single financial statement. In the case of Enron, the partnerships were complex enough that most financial analysts couldn't understand them. Once the details came to light, however, the response was swift and firm. The firm collapsed, most of the head honchos appeared before congress, are under investigation/indicted and are awaiting trial. The CEO of every publicly traded company was required to personally vouch for the validity of their firm's financial statments. The stocks of any company with even a hint of deceit in their financial statements is getting hammered by the mutual/pension fund managers that control most of the stock. The standards for public accounting firms, financial reporting, and corporate governance are undergoing considerable revision at the hands of congress. If the voters and/or the government didn't care we wouldn't have had any regulations in place to govern corporate finance whatsoever, nor would we be imposing new regulations on them at the present. Anyhow, this hardly looks like our elites turning a blind eye to these problems once they're apparent. quote: $98 million is a big number. Taking a year to report it is not exactly proactive and refusing to field questions is rather elusive. Invoking the fifth perhcance? Standard industry practice at the time. If the accountants that write the GAAP's decide it's no longer kosher, that's fine with me - but Cheney hardly stands out as the Dark Lord of Corporate Malfeasance here. quote: hat about conservative socialism?Like in Europe? That'd make us a bit less competitive, and we'd all have a greater risk of being/remaining unemployed with the kind of rigidities they've got in their labor markets over there, but I'd personally be able to deal with 6 weeks of vacation, better schools, etc. if the only consequence was turning over more of my meager dough in taxes. They're more socialist than we are over there - but they're still a long way from the "pure" socialism that many folks still get mistly eyed dreaming about, and they have been, on the whole, smart enough to realize that state/totalitarian control of the productive sectors of the economy is economic suicide and have consequently been veering away from that path for quite a while now. [ 11-26-2002, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: When you start going on about noticing higher instances of these traits, it makes it sound like you've conducted some extensive global benchmarking study into behavorial traits among Muslim nations and compared them to Western nations. I suspect that's not the case however. To draw a parallel, it sounds almost like some middle class white male talking like he knows how to solve the problems of poor inner city black kids. I'm glad to hear your opinion RobBob but to think that we can just sum up these problems in a couple of sentences is not very realistic. Three points, JGowans: 1. Maybe you have the time to sum up your opinion in more than a couple of sentences. I don't. I enjoy reading and participating in this board, but I have limited time. I don't have time to write a tome, or study a full-length Goatpost. I write, then post, and I cannot edit the damn thing to perfection. 2. Maybe you didn't identify with or agree with my posts, but it's interesting that, for instance, two different people chimed in to say that they also observed middle-easterners cheating in their engineering classes. They did identify with what I was saying. 3. I believe that you jumped to a conclusion, and henceforward your mind was closed to the point I was making. The little "parallel" you drew suggests that because I am a middle-class white male, I cannot offer clear observations about social groups other than my own. You are in a roundabout way calling me a racist with that one, and I don't appreciate it. If you have some kind of "white guilt" complex that keeps you from trying to objectively view the world, that's your problem, not mine. Re-read my post. It has to do with social customs and norms (in a higher-and-higher tech world), and not race. As you say, I did not conduct some sort of worldwide study in making my points. I have had the opportunity, however, to travel and to work with and employ people from a wide spectrum. I have read and studied (out of personal interest) about large-scale industrial accidents and commercial air crashes in particular. Many people on this board have traveled more than me; but I have been lucky to have traveled fairly extensively on four continents for business and pleasure. Off the top of my head, I have also employed people from 16 countries other than the US/5 different continents. I have gotten to know a number of these people well, and trying to understand the cultures in which they grew up is something that is interesting to me. If you don't like my posts in future, JGowans, pass'em by, but please don't try to ascribe biases to me that aren't there. You don't know me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Harris Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Here is a column by Dennis Prager that may be food for thought or fuel for the fire. [ 11-26-2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Dan Harris ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Point taken RobBob. You're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Ya mean it? Hell, I was bracin' for a sprayfest. BTW, if I were you, with your lucky number, I'd have a shirt made up that said WM#3000. I bet it wouldn't take long before somebody from cc.com would recognize you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 No, I re-read what I wrote, and you're right. I shouldn't have been so quick to criticise. That's not the point of these boards is it. It's to take everything on board and consider alternative opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 [ 11-26-2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: JGowans ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: And while we're at it, stop playing the "Communism" boogeyman paper tiger when discussing solutions. The only people afraid of socialism are the business elite, and the ones they have brainwashed! I don't know what you mean by "playing the Communism boogeyman paper tiger", but it keeps coming up because this belief system is the basis for the ideologies of many of the liberal politicians in this country. Communism is a small step from Socialism (which is a small step from fascism). The reason people are afraid of socialism is that they recognize that there is a loss of personal freedom inherent to this system. The liberal elite is afraid of unfettered capitalism because they can't regulate it and sate their lust for power. Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muir_on_Saturday Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dan Harris: Here is a column by Dennis Prager that may be food for thought or fuel for the fire. nice link dan. that article stated my earlier point exactly, and was much better written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Well, I've come to the conclusion that Islam's claim to be a peaceful religion is so much crap. [....] Pax Americana. Brought to you by a suppression of radical Islam. By whatever means are necessary. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=001222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 "Hey sexualchocolate, I'm interested in this smallpox in the blanket business. Do you know where can I read up on this?" Well, somebody else predictably (and sarcastically) pointed out FUGAZI, but got the album wrong . You'll be looking for In on the Kill Taker: and it's track #4. Anyway, duh, it's not historical reference material, but it's one of their best albums. At least as best as any of the other ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Try this... Early Biological War on Native Americans (I'm not making any validity to the claims made within but it has lots of references etc and might be a good start) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Smallpox Champion smallpox champion US of A give natives some blankets warm like the grave this is the pattern cut from the cloth this is the pattern designed to take you right out this is the frontier with winter's so cold greed informs action where action makes bold to take all the cotton that's cut from the stalk weave in the disease that's gonna take you right out what is good for the future what was good for the past what is good for the future - won't last bury your heart US of A history rears up to spit in your face you saw what you wanted you took what you saw we know how you got it your method equals wipe out the end of the frontier and all that you own under the blankets of all that you've done memory serves us to serve you yet memory serves us to never let you wipe out cha-cha-cha-champion you'll get yours wipe out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Harris Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 The Middle Eastern states aren't nations; they're quarrels with borders. - P.J O'Rourke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: I don't know what you mean by "playing the Communism boogeyman paper tiger", but it keeps coming up because this belief system is the basis for the ideologies of many of the liberal politicians in this country. Communism is a small step from Socialism (which is a small step from fascism). The reason people are afraid of socialism is that they recognize that there is a loss of personal freedom inherent to this system. The liberal elite is afraid of unfettered capitalism because they can't regulate it and sate their lust for power. Greg W Goldang, I'm startin' to wonder what we're discussing here. Are we talkin' 'bout labor unions, or are we talkin' 'bout Commies? Are we talkin' 'bout Collective Bargaining, or are we talkin' 'bout Socialism? Minimum Wage, or Fascism? Worker's Rights, or the Liberal Elite's Lust for Power? 40 Hour Work Week, or the Tyranny of the Left? Do you equate these ideas in the way I've arranged them? Sometimes I get the feeling you do, but I realize I could be Wrong.... Do you think the ideas (realities) mentioned above constitute necessary governmental intervention in the business sector? [ 11-26-2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: sexual chocolate ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: ...necessary governmental intervention in the business sector? The only time it is "necessary" for the government to intervene in the business sector is when violations of property rights or personal liberties have occurred. The myth that the government can "create" jobs or instigate "growth" is total bullshit. Everything the government does to "regulate" the economy, inflation, etc. is just a bunch of reactionary tail-chasing. Greg W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Do you see collective bargaining and unionization as integral within a capitalist society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: Well? Hey in case you didn't notice Greg's member stuff appears corrupt and that might disable him from posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 I think he was just waiting 'round for a PAGE TOP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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