el jefe Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I am 100% sure that the majority of users on this site would like to see you packing Raindawg. I disagree with this. And as much as I disagree with Raindawg he is almost always kind and even keeled. I challenge anyone to find where he has attacked you by calling you names. This site absolutely needs folks like Raindawg. You always need the other side to be presented. IMO. I have had my draws taken from a climb I left them on. The only person to blame was myself for leaving them there. I would never post on this or any site requesting them back. It is no different than knowingly leaving them on the ground at the base of the climb then coming back a week later, then being pissed that someone took them. I have no problem with draws left hanging, just dont be pissed when someone else cleans them and takes them. The reality is you left them. there you have it: raindawg gets the kevbone seal of approval. high praise indeed!
billcoe Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I have had my draws taken from a climb I left them on. The only person to blame was myself for leaving them there. The only person I would blame is the thief that stole them. I leave my backpack at the base of climbs, I don't want some dickhead walking off with it cause he perceives it as abandoned trash and a visual eyesore cause it's bright red and clashing with nature's muted colors. It isn't trash. I camp in high meadows and mountain valley camps often with various other climbers at times and we all go off and leave our expensive tents and sleeping bags with an expectation that they will be there when we get back from climbing late in the day. We don't want some dickhead walking off with our gear cause he perceives it as abandoned trash. It isn't. Anyone touches that stuff is a thief, one of the lower forms of human life. People need to leave other peoples stuff alone. Even that $100,000 Porsche when the prick takes 2 parking spaces in a crowded parking lot and pisses off the uber self-righteous Don Ryan there: leave other peoples stuff alone. As far as never meeting Rudy, Don, you obviously need to get out and climb more. I've bumped into him at a crag I hardly ever get too and we even live in different states. He's a pretty good guy in fact: despite occasionally getting sucked into the tractor beam of stupidity the Don Ryan vacuous vortex of knee jerk bloatavated opinion represents (oh but I can relate to that:-) . Talk less, climb more Don. You are welcome for the advice. Look, here comes the dawg now, how cute:
Dane Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 "This is rock climbing. There are no rules." Seems pretty obvious that unattended draws have yet to have a "rule". No matter what side of the coin you are on, obviously others have a differing opinion. That shouldn't be news to anyone. Even one leaving draws to project a .10b. With the differing opinions held by the climbing community currently, one would expect draws left unattended to dissappear on a regular basis. Easy answer I would think. Take them home with you. Or at least take them home if you are tempted to leave them on such a easy climb to clean. Kinda like leaving the keys in the Porsche over night......not all that smart.
el jefe Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 maybe not smart to leave the keys in the porsche overnight, dane, but the guy who drives off with the car can be charged with auto theft, which is a pretty serious felony offense. the perspective of raindawg and his ilk is that taking the draws left on a route is not stealing but rather some sort of example of being environmentally more aware or something. taking something that you know doesn't belong to you is stealing. regardless of why the draws are hanging on the route or how you feel about it, taking something that belongs to someone else means you are a thief. same as if i drive away in your porsche.
G-spotter Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 if you were out in the mountains and you found a 30 year old suitcase strapped to the remains of a parachute on some peak, with $30 k in unmarked bills inside, would you leave it where it was because that money belonged to someone else?
kevbone Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 The only person I would blame is the thief that stole them. I leave my backpack at the base of climbs, I don't want some dickhead walking off with it cause he perceives it as abandoned trash and a visual eyesore cause it's bright red and clashing with nature's muted colors. It isn't trash. I hear you. But do you leave your backpack at the base of a climb for a year? I didnt think so. If you did...I would consider it abandon and clean it up.
akhalteke Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 We already saw the video of the Hobbit cleaning draws off of a 5.14 at Smith. Where there is a will, there is a way. If someone is going to go through the trouble to steal draws off a hard sport route in daylight, what makes you think that someone wont steal quickdraws off a route some people free solo when you left it overnight(s)? Sucks that the cocksucker stole your stuff. You did leave them out and knew the risks. I hate when people "project" 5.13's and .14's. Doesn't mean that I think that their shit should be stolen, but you tempt a theif and he will steal.
kevbone Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 How many times as climbers have any one of you taken an abandon quick draw off the middle of a climb or at the anchor? I know I have......is that stealing? Or collecting booty?
Kimmo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 auto theft, which is a pretty serious felony offense. is car theft really a felony offense? didn't know that. i've had 2 or 3 cars stolen in seattle; kinda low on the crime totem pole methinks. taking something that you know doesn't belong to you is stealing. what if what you take is taken by the government, which has taken it from somewhere else with no real representative "permission"? is that "stealing"?
Kimmo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 How many times as climbers have any one of you taken an abandon quick draw off the middle of a climb or at the anchor? I know I have......is that stealing? Or collecting booty? i used to. i think my sense of ethics evolved. not entirely sure if the evolution of my pocketbook played a role; i actually think not.
akhalteke Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 auto theft, which is a pretty serious felony offense. is car theft really a felony offense? didn't know that. i've had 2 or 3 cars stolen in seattle; kinda low on the crime totem pole methinks. taking something that you know doesn't belong to you is stealing. what if what you take is taken by the government, which has taken it from somewhere else with no real representative "permission"? is that "stealing"? What if nothing. Stealing is wrong. If you steal, I hope you get shot in both kneecaps and elbows, have your eyelids carved off and get dumped in the middle of the desert to have your corneas bake off while slithering like a snake. That being said, quit being self important assholes and take your gear home with you. If you wanna cry about it getting stolen, do it alone; in your closet.
Kimmo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 What if nothing. Stealing is wrong. If you steal, I hope you get shot in both kneecaps and elbows, have your eyelids carved off and get dumped in the middle of the desert to have your corneas bake off while slithering like a snake. i suppose that the feelings you harbor about your role in my example would demand the response you gave.... considering your complicity in the "offense" you deem worthy of knee-cap removal.
kevbone Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 What if nothing. Stealing is wrong. Agreed. But is collecting booty/abandon gear/bale carabiners stealing?
G-spotter Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Suppose I find a sling and Neutrino on Girth Pillar. Should I assume it has been left as crucial gear by someone working the route?
Buckaroo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I can see where a rookie or someone that hasn't climbed for a long time would see left draws as booty because they might think that someone bailed on the route and couldn't, for whatever reason, retrieve them. After all the practice is relatively new. This goes along with the fact I don't ever think I've seen a climber that was a thief, it just doesn't go hand in hand. The backpack is an invalid comparison. The conditions of a left backpack are obvious to any level of climber, the left draws are not. I also see a lot of personal attacks against Raindawg on these boards when he's only stating a personal opinion. And as far as lower forms of human life, to me that's those people that intentionally expose a person's private identity on a public board, merely because they don't agree with someone's personal opinion. That's right down there with rat and thief. I think leaving draws is lazy but probably excusable if it's on really steep ground. In which case they should be made permanent with screwlinks. Leaving draws on the 5.10 part of a route is a different matter. Now what are you saying? It's obvious that it's an easy clip so the question arises, why are they left? No climber can deny that "booty" is an appealing concept, it probably just clouded some rookie's reason. The rookie is at fault for not being educated, which is excusable. The pink point climber is at fault for assuming everyone knows the 5.13 climber's methods, and for being lazy, not cleaning the easy part of the route, and not using screwlinks. What is the specific history of this practice? IIRC it started with just a couple of draws on the impossible clips of a very hard route, and they were usually screwlinked. It's morphed into all the draws on a hard route. So now it's all the draws on a route even if part of it's 5.10? and no screwlinks? So what is the cutoff rating where it's "ok" to leave gear? is it 5.12, 5.13? Some overhanging 5.11's are just as hard to clean. Does that mean 5.12 climbers are allowed to be lazy but 5.11 climbers aren't? Is this cutoff rating written somewhere in a guide or instructional book? Assuming this number can't even be pinned down by the experts, how do you expect the rookies to know? TLDR, it's a gray area in question.
billcoe Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 And as far as lower forms of human life, to me that's those people that intentionally expose a person's private identity on a public board, merely because they don't agree with someone's personal opinion. That's right down there with rat and thief. You talking to me? I post under my own name. Don outed himself quite sometime ago in case you missed it. I think we'd all do better being ourselves instead of these fake names that seem to bring macho posturing and mean spirited personal attacks. I try to not get nasty and personal to Don (or to anyone although I'm not perfect of course) and diss on his profession (archeologist) as I have a lot of respect for those who do that work. That Don shows up here and is a total blowhard is difficult to see all the time, and it's not because he's older than me (He's not), or been climbing longer (he hasn't), or is a better climber (he definitely isn't), it's the style he presents his shtick. So I give it back to him.... ...Oh, here comes the dawg back again... Woof!
Buckaroo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I post under my own name. that's beside the point Don outed himself quite sometime ago in case you missed it. In that case my criticism of you on identity is invalid the criticism of personal attacks obviously still stands
billcoe Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 the criticism of personal attacks obviously still stands This? I was trying to make a joke. Don always posts clowns and other strange pics, some of it pretty interesting and on occasion humorous. I was just trying to play on that level for him. Take care all!
Rad Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I have a rock climbing TR but I won't post it in this forum, which might as well be titled "bolt spray", because it will be overshadowed by this sprayathon. Look for it in Alpine Lakes...
genepires Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 c'mon Rad, don't get all poopy. The forum is for all things rock climbing and this disaster of a thread is WAY better than the best spray forum thread. Which is easy to do. besides, without this debacle, we would never have seen the dog ass sliding video. You gotta admit that was worth it.
Buckaroo Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I suppose if anyone was really worried about personal attacks they would have to take down about 1/2 the forum
billcoe Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 besides, without this debacle, we would never have seen the dog ass sliding video. You gotta admit that was worth it. Yes, exactly, people in other country's have to pay to watch that kind of thing. Rad, sorry it went there because you write very, very well, and your stuff is so much better than a dog sliding it's ass over the floor.
Raindawg Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 And as far as lower forms of human life, to me that's those people that intentionally expose a person's private identity on a public board, merely because they don't agree with someone's personal opinion. That's right down there with rat and thief. You talking to me? I post under my own name. Don outed himself quite sometime ago in case you missed it. I think we'd all do better being ourselves instead of these fake names that seem to bring macho posturing and mean spirited personal attacks. I try to not get nasty and personal to Don (or to anyone although I'm not perfect of course) and diss on his profession (archeologist) as I have a lot of respect for those who do that work. That Don shows up here and is a total blowhard is difficult to see all the time, and it's not because he's older than me (He's not), or been climbing longer (he hasn't), or is a better climber (he definitely isn't), it's the style he presents his shtick. So I give it back to him.... ...Oh, here comes the dawg back again... INSERT CRUDE IMAGE. Woof! 1) Yah....Buckaroo's talkin' to you. Do a search in Display Search Name: "Raindawg". Keyword = Ryan, and go back at least 5 years and see how much I appreciate all of this in context. In short, I don't. Do a little research. You should be embarrassed. You probably don't know my age (irrelevant) , how long I've been climbing (a substantial number of years) , or more ridiculously, whether I'm "better" or not (maybe I am, maybe I'm not...how could you possibly know and by whose standards?? more importantly, who cares??)...and yes I do consider your comments personal and mean-spirited. 2) You have no respect for me nor my profession...it is irrelevant to this discussion other than I use the skills I've learned through mountaineering to pursue exploration which outside of your sphere seems widely appreciated. You and others bring it up in a bizarre ad hominen spin to attack my environmental stances. I guess it's the best you can come up with. You should be admonished under the new rules on this site for personal attacks. If you think I'm a "blowhard", it only exposes your intolerance for perspectives other than your own and I would hope that this site is open to alternative viewpoints. By the way your responses lately have been very crude. Happy now? Got a response/some attention? Should I post a happy clown picture for you rather than a crass dog dragging his butt across the floor? That's all I got to say to you, mister. B'bye. For the rest of the readers enjoying the floor-show, I hope you're more open-minded and tolerant of alternative perspectives than the guy who claims I'm not. And for those who might be disappointed that I haven't posted a picture, enjoy:
billcoe Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Now you're just being shrill. The kid just want's to know where his draws are. Doesn't need a self-righteous self important know it all street preacher screaming that YOU ARE A SINNER!!!! So back in your box, pop out when you can be helpful OK? WHOA.....sorry for that clown thing....wow! That will give ya nightmares.
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