Mountie Alert - Royal Columns 5/21-22

[Toast]

Just a heads up there'll be a bit of traffic at Royal Columns. I help with a lead class for the Everett Mountaineers. We'll mainly be on the easy routes to the left of the Western Front. Happy to accommodate if you see an open route. Just ask, and we can pull the top rope.

 

Thanks,

 

[ilookeddown]

Thanks for the heads up! It would be nice if other large groups would do the same. I went touring up at Snoqualmie just before 7am today and there were 15 to 20 getting to head out. I speculate the tooth was the destination. There is nothing worse than showing up somewhere and seeing a lineup.

[Layback]

Thanks for the heads up! It would be nice if other large groups would do the same. I went touring up at Snoqualmie just before 7am today and there were 15 to 20 getting to head out. I speculate the tooth was the destination. There is nothing worse than showing up somewhere and seeing a lineup.

 

It looks like it could have been the WAC (and according to their calendar they'll have a big group there Saturday and Sunday too): http://wacclass.org/calendar/weekend_calendar.htm

 

Here's an image from their trip there last year. Seems kind of excessive if you ask me. I wish people would hold them accountable because they make all of the clubs look bad when they pull this crap.

 

 

The Flickr set is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/snutur/sets/72157618011237549/with/3529598416/

 

Another image from 2007:

 

 

That set is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewjohnsullivan/sets/72157600305414195/with/528494091/

[Dave A.]

Quit your whining. A group of 10 in the Snoq. Pass area is hardly excessive. If solitude is your desire head deeper into the mountains.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Quit your whining. A group of 10 in the Snoq. Pass area is hardly excessive. If solitude is your desire head deeper into the mountains.

 

10 people from the same group on the Tooth is ridiculous

[Dave A.]

So if the easy routes just off a major freeway are for only the hardcore Cascade Climbers where would you like to see the newbies go?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So if the easy routes just off a major freeway are for only the hardcore Cascade Climbers where would you like to see the newbies go?

 

It's the party size that's the issue.

[kurthicks]

a party size of 12 is the legal limit in most wilderness, regardless of one's affiliation with a club or organization.

 

perhaps a better question is if these pay-for-instruction groups have commercial operating permits for public lands?

[genepires]

I thought non profits did not need permits other than the permits needed by all individuals. (park pass, rainier climbing fee, camping fees, ect)

am I wrong?

[AlpineK]

So if the easy routes just off a major freeway are for only the hardcore Cascade Climbers where would you like to see the newbies go?

 

It's the party size that's the issue.

 

Yep, party size is the majority of the problem. Clogging up an area occurs primarily while rock climbing with a few exceptions.

 

While a party size of 12 on an alpine climb is acceptable it gives students the wrong message. In the end most folks travel in groups of two to four while alpine climbing, so new climbers need to learn how to climb in groups this size.

 

Climbing class instruction at a crag has to be an exception unless you run a small for profit guiding service. It's nice to see the Mountaineers giving folks a heads up when they know a large group is heading to the crag.

[genepires]

 

While a party size of 12 on an alpine climb is acceptable it gives students the wrong message. In the end most folks travel in groups of two to four while alpine climbing, so new climbers need to learn how to climb in groups this size.

 

but for instructional purposes, traveling in 2 to 4 is not reasonable.

If they stayed in groups of four, they would need 2 instructors for 2 students. Good luck finding enough volunteers (who actually know something) to teach that many students.

You are right though about the dangers of decision making and complacency in large groups. Maybe that is something that is best learned in the real life climbing situations between instruction and "graduation".

[Layback]

Quit your whining. A group of 10 in the Snoq. Pass area is hardly excessive. If solitude is your desire head deeper into the mountains.

 

There are legal limits and there are ethical limits. 12 on the Tooth is way beyond the realm of ethical.

 

My Mountaineers groups, which include students, never exceed 4 on a rock climb or ice climb and never exceed 6 on a glacier. You can be respectful to the climbing community and still get your students the experience you/they desire if you take the time to care.

[num1mc]

Who said the WAC is going to climb the Tooth? Seems like a lot of conjecture. Their web link state today is "Lets go climbing" at Snoqualmie pass. So that could mead all sorts of things.

 

Also, what proof is there that they have more than 12 people involved, other than Layback (pot) calling the WAC (kettle) black?

Edited May 21, 2011 by num1mc

[Dave A.]

Thanks, Genepires. You expressed what I was thinking much better than I did. Whenever a newbie asks about a climb the answer is usually to get some insruction. Mountaineers,etc. are the most reasonable option for most people. I was fortunate to meet some great mentors. Not everyone is so lucky.

[Layback]

I didn't say they had more than 12. The images clearly show 11 people (+1 photographer) and the exif data clearly shows that this is when they do their alpine rock FT at the Tooth every year.

 

ETA: I'd also throw a Mounty group under the bus if there was a group that big on an alpine rock climb. If we, the climbing communiy, don't hold people accountable for their actions stuff like this happens and eventually one of us gets stuck on a rock climb waiting for 12 of our closest friends...

Edited May 21, 2011 by Layback

[Drederek]

Mountie bashing just ain't whut it used to be

[num1mc]

This is just thread hijacking. The topic is Mountie Bashing, and Layback is adament on thransforming this into a thread about WAC bashing.

 

Poor form if yoy ask me.

 

Someone should start a Wayback bashing thread

[ira]

i have seen much larger groups of Mtneers on rock climbs than you mention (4 people) and have been held up by them. they have also been instructional climbs for students. and i have seen very large Mtneer groups on the Nisqually teaching. this is the nature of having classes and teaching. it's just not possible to teach a large number of people and only take 2 out at a time.

[jordansahls]

If more groups had women in Bikini tops I would be much more likely to attend.

[olyclimber]

I didn't say they had more than 12. The images clearly show 11 people (+1 photographer) and the exif data clearly shows that this is when they do their alpine rock FT at the Tooth every year.

 

ETA: I'd also throw a Mounty group under the bus if there was a group that big on an alpine rock climb. If we, the climbing communiy, don't hold people accountable for their actions stuff like this happens and eventually one of us gets stuck on a rock climb waiting for 12 of our closest friends...

 

its sounds like this outing was barely legal!

[Layback]

i have seen much larger groups of Mtneers on rock climbs than you mention (4 people) and have been held up by them. they have also been instructional climbs for students. and i have seen very large Mtneer groups on the Nisqually teaching. this is the nature of having classes and teaching. it's just not possible to teach a large number of people and only take 2 out at a time.

 

It's true that The Mountaineers have done their own share of messed up stuff that isn't cool. Personally I think the party of 6 that the Mountaineers had on The Tooth was too big also, but that's been the maximum number allowed on Monty alpine rock climbs since I've been a member, which was 2005. I'd like to see that number dropped to 4 personally. I can't speak to whatever dumb stuff the club surely did before that. The large groups you've seen on the Nisqually, for which the club paid for and was issued special use permits, were terminated in 2007 because it doesn't teach students the right thing and it makes the club look bad.

 

No offense Ira, but you're "we had 15 on Friday" and "that's what you do in a class" attitude kind of worries me what you're teaching your students about acceptable group size and consideration for others in the general climbing community. We all have a right to enjoy a day on Das Toof no matter how skilled or unskilled we are. Do you really think it's considerate to others to put up top-ropes on every pitch of The Tooth? Couldn't you just as easily go out in parties of 6 over 2 weekends instead of parties of 12-15 over one weekend? Isn't it the same number of qualified people to oversee the folks who are learning? It's not like we're talking about a crag where one can just walk in their flip flops another 10 feet and set up on the next climb, you know?

 

I hope you reconsider when planning for next year. I think it might make everyone's experience better, including perhaps your own people. My 2 overstated cents...

[mattp]

I don't understand. Well sort of.

 

I've been one who complained about large groups when they were in MY way, or when they invaded an area that I felt some ownership over, or when I thought they were having undue impact somewhere. I've confronted the intruders directly, written letters to the rangers, or complained to my friends. But, really, but I think it is a question of context and I don't think that Royal Columns or The Tooth is a context where we really have much to complain about. Ingalls Peak maybe, but even there only, really, maybe.

 

Here's my thinking:

 

1. Don't you expect large crowds if you head to The Tooth, or R and D in Leavenworth, or the West Ridge of Forbidden Peak in good weather? You should.

 

2. I don't think a WAC group of 12 on the Tooth is any worse than a bunch of parties, adding up to 12, who are not part of a program with leaders who (hopefully) know what they are doing and have some concern for how their program impacts others. At Tieton, or on The Tooth, it is not at all uncommon to find AT LEAST 12 other people in line in front of you.

 

3. Aren't all of us in somebody else's way at some point?

 

I commend the Mountaineers for responding to public comment and reducing their group size if that is in fact what they have done, and I share the pain of anybody who was on The Tooth or Ingalls Peak when a large group showed up in front of them, but these are public resources we are talking about. I think clubs, guide outfits, and even just large groups of friends have just as much right to be there as parties of two.

 

As I said: I have complained about large parties myself. It is disappointing-and then some-to hike in to a climb and find a bunch of people in your way, and in some environments or some contexts a single large group has more impact than several smaller ones. But Tieton in the Spring or the Tooth? What do you expect?

 

[Coldfinger]

It's a free country brother!

[Off_White]

I just wanted to give Toast a thumbs up for the advance notice, something he does every year even though it often starts one of these mountie bashing threads.

[AlpineK]

Yep, I give Toast a thumbs up for the announcements too.

 

They recognize their class may generate some conflicts and they're willing to work with climbers looking to climb routes they would like to use for their class. That's a good message.