Interesting rescue and resulting ethical quandary

[billcoe]

The government should stay out of the rescue business. If these guys had private insurance, I'd be fine with it. But they didn't, and so we all wind up paying, and looking at added government intrusions and restrictions for us all in the future.

 

That is all.

[DPS]

The government should stay out of the rescue business.

Across the board? No more Coast Guard rescues of boaters or commerical fisherman? No Medic One calls for heart attacks or car accidents?

[el jefe]

no more army, navy or air force, too. i say everyone just put up barbed wire and hunker down. then we can all live billcoe's vision of a paradise with no dang guvmint tellin' us what to do.

 

that is all.

[KirkW]

no more army, navy or air force, too. i say everyone just put up barbed wire and hunker down. then we can all live billcoe's vision of a paradise with no dang guvmint tellin' us what to do.

 

that is all.

 

I would personally be fine with getting rid of the entire military as it exists today. We should recall all of our National Guard and use them for what they were intended for. Ya know...as in guarding our nation instead of fighting wars for oil companies. We could bring home most of the rest of the military scattered across the globe too and in their place create an armed forces that is actually designed to protect the citizens of the united states instead of just making more money for all ready ridiculously filthy rich 1% that now controls them... but that is a little off topic I guess.

 

Calling for a "rescue" because you are cold and had to sleep in a snow cave is like calling the fire department to your home to put out a fire you started on your own bbq and then decided you couldn't be bothered to close the lid on.

 

When we look to techno gadgets to take the place of good skills and sound judgement, government intervention cannot be far behind, if for no other reason than the fact that insurance companies are sure to be involved and they will lobby whomever they need to stack the legal deck in their favor to insure the highest profit margin possible.

 

No thanks, Id rather depend on my partner and my compass.

[JeffreyR]

The government should stay out of the rescue business. If these guys had private insurance, I'd be fine with it. But they didn't, and so we all wind up paying, and looking at added government intrusions and restrictions for us all in the future.

 

That is all.

 

You don't pay for military rescues. The military regards civilian rescues as training and would be flying regardless. I have personally checked these facts with acquaintances who fly with Whidby Island Navy SAR.

[KirkW]

The government should stay out of the rescue business. If these guys had private insurance, I'd be fine with it. But they didn't, and so we all wind up paying, and looking at added government intrusions and restrictions for us all in the future.

 

That is all.

 

You don't pay for military rescues. The military regards civilian rescues as training and would be flying regardless. I have personally checked these facts with acquaintances who fly with Whidby Island Navy SAR.

 

You are correct in that these hours are logged as training and they would be consuming taxpayers money regardless but they are still consuming taxpayers money so it not accurate to say that we aren't paying for it.

 

I feel a more important issue than the misspent coin is the risks that SAR personnel are exposed to when they have to go bail someone out. From the article it sounds as though the rescuers in this situation had no easy time getting to these dudes. I wouldn't feel good about someone risking their life to "save" me from being cold and scared. Hypothermic, starving, injured, days over due etc. would be one thing, but "lost" on route not far from camp a few hours after crawling into a snow cave? Seriously? It is winter climbing in Alaska afterall.

 

SAR was about to go after them on foot when the weather broke and they were able touch down with one wheel on the ridge after dumping gear and people lower on the mountain. Probably good "training" for the military but not very good PR for the climbing community. Once the weather broke what was stopping these guys from walking down to their camp and hauling it out? What was going on to justify the helicopter heroics? I wish I could find more information about this rescue because I know there is good reason to with hold my criticisms of these two men personally. I don't know them and I don't know what went on but the facts as presented are worthy of discussion in my opinion.

 

I think Bills point is that the more we look to government to solve these issues for us the more government is going to tell us what, when , where and how to climb. Which would only be fair if we start using SAR as a magic carpet to wisk us away from (rather minor in this case)consequences of making stupid choices in the hills.

 

I'm not in favor of getting rid of SAR I just think that we as climbers have to view it as a last possible solution to the problems we create for ourselves in the mountains and premature use of a PLB that initiates an unneeded rescue should have a negative consequence. Maybe getting a public thrashing on the internet is enough?

[Maine-iac]

The government should stay out of the rescue business.

Across the board? No more Coast Guard rescues of boaters or commerical fisherman? No Medic One calls for heart attacks or car accidents?

 

If you don't want your Medic 1 I'll that that crew! You Seattle folks have one of the best EMS groups in the world.

 

I'm not going to hound these guys for pulling out, I wasn't there and all I read was second/third hand reports, so I don't know what they were thinking about. But when I was in AK we planned for those hard days. I expected to carry a little heaver packs incase I couldn't be flown out on time and just made sure to have my head screwed on straight.

 

Would I have pushed the button? Maybe or maybe-not. From what I read, probably not, but I wasn't there and I don't know the guys. Would I return the gear- yeah probably since it sounds like the guy who has it knows who that party is (depends on how easily it is to track them down). Would I ask for some money to help cover the bush flights. Yeah.

[DPS]

My question for Bill is if he objects to government supported rescues for climbers because climbers should be self reliant and held to a higher standard or against government interference in the natural selection process in general.

[billcoe]

I think Bills point is that the more we look to government to solve these issues for us the more government is going to tell us what, when , where and how to climb.

BINGO! Spot on the money what Kirk W says. Anyone who has climbed in the Alps will know that you are pretty much free to kill yourself anyway you want. That the Euros are already freer than US climbers should stick in the craw of any thinking American IMO. Should you find yourself FUBAR FUBAR defined over there without having made pre-arranged plans or lined up the readily available insurance (which you are free to do), then you'd better have friends or relatives or pay the price -because it's no ones concern otherwise. Have there not been examples of Swiss guides sitting in a hut drinking pilsners while climbers froze to death because they had not pre-arranged?

 

My question for Bill is if he objects to government supported rescues for climbers because climbers should be self reliant and held to a higher standard or against government interference in the natural selection process in general.

I believe we should all support our local SAR (Search And Rescues), and that government can be of great assistance, but should be relegated to a communications only role. ie, a call goes into 911 (HELP) and they dial the correct SAR and other folks and followup with them for results and perhaps help co-ordinate media, additional emergency calls and volunteers: telling them what they know and directing them to the correct folks. If the gov. is going to fill this role, eventually we will have SAR just dry up and go away as they will not be needed, whereas I feel the reverse should occur.

 

Should the guard - or down here the 304th Air Force, want to line up a training mission, they can ask local SAR orgs to call them if and when they are needed. I don't know anyone who would turn down that kind of help. I do know that they are looking for missions like this, my neighbor is a PJ who's helicopter rolled down Mt Hood on a climber pickup mission not that long ago. I've met most of those guys and they're all awesome dudes, I'm fine with them going on missions but I think it should be clearer that is a a secondary line and role for them, and clearly voluntary on both sides.

 

I don't compare rescues of fishermen, who are in many ways economically forced to head out in marginal weather (plus the actual benefit that they provide to all of us), to climbers, who's endeavors are strictly optional and in many ways selfish. If the Coast Guard wants to rescue boaters fine by me. Historically anyone in the vicinity (even if that means a tanker turns out of it's way hundreds of miles), will go help a boat in need, even if it's just a pleasure craft. Whom ever has the capabilities and is close should go and assist.

 

Naturally, this is my opinion only: certainly your results will vary based on your life's history and knowledge. This is how I see it.

[wfinley]

I don't compare rescues of fishermen, who are in many ways economically forced to head out in marginal weather (plus the actual benefit that they provide to all of us), to climbers, who's endeavors are strictly optional and in many ways selfish.

Please explain to me how the average desk jockey benefits from fishermen? So we have fresh sushi? Whatever - I don't see any difference between fishermen who push it in marginal weather with poor equipment and climbers or recreational boaters who do the same.

 

That said -- It should be noted that one of the climbers was an F-16 pilot, so when he pressed the button he had the full attention of the military who responded in the same way they would have in Afghanistan or Iraq. C-130s and Pave Hawks aren't just sent out in marginal conditions for anyone.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2011 by wfinley

[billcoe]

I don't compare rescues of fishermen, who are in many ways economically forced to head out in marginal weather (plus the actual benefit that they provide to all of us), to climbers, who's endeavors are strictly optional and in many ways selfish.

Please explain to me how the average desk jockey benefits from fishermen? So we have fresh sushi? Whatever - I don't see any difference between fishermen who push it in marginal weather with poor equipment and climbers or recreational boaters who do the same.

 

That said -- It should be noted that one of the climbers was an F-16 pilot, so when he pressed the button he had the full attention of the military who responded in the same way they would have in Afghanistan or Iraq. C-130s and Pave Hawks aren't just sent out in marginal conditions for anymore.

 

You've never opened a can of tuna fish? Whooh!

 

F-16 pilot, call everyone. We have a shit load of scratch invested in the dude. Did you know that it is illegal for a GI to get a tattoo? Yeah, it damages government property and you can be charged and face military justice. No joke. Ask Sam. If you get a couple more of these pilots calling in, they will soon tell them: "NO MORE CLIMBING". THE END.

 

Thats' how they roll.

[kevino]

Do you have to pay extra to have the F-16 pilot PLB>?

[sobo]

No, Kevin, you don't have to pay extra for it, but it's a bitch to lug one of these things around...

The bright spot is that the PLB is built right in to the seat!

 

[Doug]

The government should stay out of the rescue business. If these guys had private insurance, I'd be fine with it. But they didn't, and so we all wind up paying, and looking at added government intrusions and restrictions for us all in the future.

 

That is all.

 

The military need to train in order to keep their skills sharp. To a one, every Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force and Army serviceman I've worked with on a rescue said they would much rather have their training budget go for helping with climber rescues than a benign training exercise. Way better value for the tax dollar, IMO.

[AlpineK]

Yep, the military is going to go on training exercises no matter what, and training costs money. In this case it's rescuing a couple climbers. The military gets to train and practice while performing a community service.

 

If you start charging for climber rescue then it's only fair to charge boaters and hikers for rescue. Taken to extreme you'll have to pay when the fire department rescues you from a burning building.

 

If billcoe's plan goes into action the only legal emergency locater beacons will send out your credit card number when you activate them.

[rob]

Text 467 for rescue. Additional charges may apply.

[KirkW]

If you start charging for climber rescue then it's only fair to charge boaters and hikers for rescue. Taken to extreme you'll have to pay when the fire department rescues you from a burning building.

 

You mean like this?

 

[djdan]

Well this one has wandered...

But back to the original question of should these guys expect to get their gear back: why should they ever expect that? They effed up and walked away from it. A while back my buddy got a .75 stuck 15' up and after 20 minutes of trying simply could not get it out. We walked 25' away around the corner and hopped on the next route. In the meantime a group passed us by and headed around the corner to the route we had just been on. 20 minutes later after finishing ours we strolled around the corner again to find the group that had just passed us beaming about the new cam they had just found and extracted. My friend didn't throw a fit, didn't demand it back, he just sheepishly told them he had just lost it. Now, in this case the other party was overly cool and offered it to him but this was not expected.

I think the summary is this: you walk away from your shit in the middle of nowhere then its gone. Too bad so sad. If someone is really cool and they offer it to you then good for them. They get a cookie in heaven but there should be zero expectations for this kind of thing.

[cascadesdj]

You give the gear back. It's not yours. You did not buy it. Twice, I've found gear and gone to considerable effort to locate the owners and returned the gear via mail. That's no big saintly deal, just the right thing to do if you did not buy the stuff. That's just the way I look at it. It doesn't matter if the guys made mistakes, etc. Hey, it's a short time on this earth. Try to make it better. I think the "booty" is otherwise somewhat tainted.

 

Just another opinion.