Root Cellars, so [s]Hot[/s] Cool right Now

[prole]

 

Mmmm. Efficient.

 

[olyclimber]

[video:youtube]n5diMImYIIA

[lazyalpinist]

What I learned from this thread part two:

 

1) I am a bad person for cooking my food

 

2) I am a bad person for using a refrigerator, but the supply chain is not bad for using refrigeration

 

3) Op/Ed pieces are scientific fact

[billcoe]

The funny thing about locavores is that preparing food at home consumes vastly more energy than anything else in the journey from food to table. The energy inputs from commercial production and transport are completely trivial by comparison.

 

Having said that - if you're willing to invest the time and money in a particular boutique food fetish - knock yourself out. There are plenty of people who will be happy to take your money in exchange for producing food that's consistent with whatever set of values and practices that you believe in.

 

No way jayb, bad data for the points you are striving to make. Franky I'm surprised you linked those 2 studies. I buy into the point that large agribusiness is more efficient than local farms. Your second opinion piece makes the point that the consumer driving to the store and cooking the stuff is the largest energy consumption of the process. Yet why would driving to the store, buying and cooking the product flown over from China or Spain be less consumptive than buying the local product and making the same drive home and the same cooking method? Bad point on his part.

 

I support having more food instead of less and am happy for the modern scale and transportation available for me to enjoy the benefits of. However, that there are a lot of cost associated with the larger farms that are hidden and still picked up by taxpayers is undoubtedly true and the minutia of how bad it is can be debated for eternity as well, yet no one, even big agribusiness, claims that it doesn't exist. The debate is only the extent of it. http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~agroeco3/modern_agriculture.html

 

Perhaps I missed these important points in the studies. Where does the Swedish study, for example, say that eating your broccoil (spagetti, coucous etc) out is better than home cooking it? Nor does it compare anything about long supply chain vs local grown? I missed it. Th second study makes the point that a large ship is much more cost effective than a car to the grocery store, but we are all at a loss on how to get a large ship to make regular deposits of small loads of vegetables at our door. In fact that "study" (perhaps we should say "link") in particular, shockingly had even less facts and even more opinions than the usual Pat Galleger egotistically demented loud-diarrhea of the mouth blathering on this site. LOL, a rare and unusual thing indeed.

 

For myself, as I live in a wet part of the country and don't drive 50 miles to get fish for use as fertilizer, the tomatoes we grow from seeds is significantly better for the carbon footprint than driving to the store for cardboard taste tomatoes shipped up from Mexico. They get some water during the hot part of summer, but other than us wandering through the patch to pull the odd weed, very little energy is used. We plant them, pick them, eat them. Far as that goes, I walk to the farmers market, and although I can't say what kind of energy costs are utilized in the production, it is much more efficient than me driving to the large box store. Your links do not seem to study this. But regardless, I like the quality and flavor better than large agifarmed products anyway. If you have found an alternative to refrigeration other than a root cellar, please share it. In regards to cooking it, I don't see the savings unless perhaps you are looking at a JR Simplot farmed and processed french fry over a baked potato. However, that wasn't in your studies unless I missed it. Certainly the scale of freezing them at the store has a nice economy of scale to it, but when you buy them in that little frozen bag and bring them home, you have to put them in your freezer. You're saying that this is more economical than growing your own potatoes? Just tossing a few eyes into your back yard and covering them with straw or grass, then coming back months later and tineing them out the potatoes at the end of the growing season with a pitchfork? I can't see how that is.

 

For myself, the brief respite of eating cardboard tasting Tomatoes, of smacking into a juicy, complexly rich and varied taste succulent tomato picked from my garden, give me a rich satisfaction of knowing that it both tastes better, and is better for the world.

 

The point I take away from you your 2 links is to put a lid on the cooking pot and-or pay attention to how you are preparing your food.

 

Duh

[denalidave]

This thread will be great fodder for the Mrs.

 

Seems to me, if you really want to be the uber green, clean foody, you should stop eating anything. This will clear any doubt of whether or not the food you ingest is "sustainable", "local", or whatever "they" say is best for the great Mother Earth. It's all about protecting our "Mother", at any cost...

[ivan]

wasn't lionel terray a really shitty farmer?

[Choada_Boy]

This thread will be great fodder for the Mrs.

 

Seems to me, if you really want to be the uber green, clean foody, you should stop eating anything. This will clear any doubt of whether or not the food you ingest is "sustainable", "local", or whatever "they" say is best for the great Mother Earth. It's all about protecting our "Mother", at any cost...

 

Inedia

[JayB]

The funny thing about locavores is that preparing food at home consumes vastly more energy than anything else in the journey from food to table. The energy inputs from commercial production and transport are completely trivial by comparison.

 

Having said that - if you're willing to invest the time and money in a particular boutique food fetish - knock yourself out. There are plenty of people who will be happy to take your money in exchange for producing food that's consistent with whatever set of values and practices that you believe in.

 

No way jayb, bad data for the points you are striving to make. Franky I'm surprised you linked those 2 studies. I buy into the point that large agribusiness is more efficient than local farms. Your second opinion piece makes the point that the consumer driving to the store and cooking the stuff is the largest energy consumption of the process. Yet why would driving to the store, buying and cooking the product flown over from China or Spain be less consumptive than buying the local product and making the same drive home and the same cooking method? Bad point on his part.

 

I support having more food instead of less and am happy for the modern scale and transportation available for me to enjoy the benefits of. However, that there are a lot of cost associated with the larger farms that are hidden and still picked up by taxpayers is undoubtedly true and the minutia of how bad it is can be debated for eternity as well, yet no one, even big agribusiness, claims that it doesn't exist. The debate is only the extent of it. http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~agroeco3/modern_agriculture.html

 

Perhaps I missed these important points in the studies. Where does the Swedish study, for example, say that eating your broccoil (spagetti, coucous etc) out is better than home cooking it? Nor does it compare anything about long supply chain vs local grown? I missed it. Th second study makes the point that a large ship is much more cost effective than a car to the grocery store, but we are all at a loss on how to get a large ship to make regular deposits of small loads of vegetables at our door. In fact that "study" (perhaps we should say "link") in particular, shockingly had even less facts and even more opinions than the usual Pat Galleger egotistically demented loud mouth diarrhea of the mouth blathering on this site. LOL, a rare and unusual thing indeed.

 

For myself, as I live in a wet part of the country and don't drive 50 miles to get fish for use as fertilizer, the tomatoes we grow from seeds is significantly better for the carbon footprint than driving to the store for cardboard taste tomatoes shipped up from Mexico. They get some water during the hot part of summer, but other than us wandering through the patch to pull the odd weed, very little energy is used. We plant them, pick them, eat them. Far as that goes, I walk to the farmers market, and although I can't say what kind of energy costs are utilized in the production, it is much more efficient than me driving to the large box store. Your links do not seem to study this. But regardless, I like the quality and flavor better than large agifarmed products anyway. If you have found an alternative to refrigeration other than a root cellar, please share it. In regards to cooking it, I don't see the savings unless perhaps you are looking at a JR Simplot farmed and processed french fry over a baked potato. However, that wasn't in your studies unless I missed it. Certainly the scale of freezing them at the store has a nice economy of scale to it, but when you buy them in that little frozen bag and bring them home, you have to put them in your freezer. You're saying that this is more economical than growing your own potatoes? Just tossing a few eyes into your back yard and covering them with straw or grass, then coming back months later and tineing them out the potatoes at the end of the growing season with a pitchfork? I can't see how that is.

 

For myself, the brief respite of eating cardboard tasting Tomatoes, of smacking into a juicy, complexly rich and varied taste succulent tomato picked from my garden, give me a rich satisfaction of knowing that it both tastes better, and is better for the world.

 

The point I take away from you your 2 links is to put a lid on the cooking pot and-or pay attention to how you are preparing your food.

 

Duh

 

Woah! This isn't directed at you Bill, but I'll just use your post as an opportunity to make a general response.

 

I'm all for people voting with their hands, feet, and wallet to get whatever kind of food they like to eat, or that provides them with some other source of intangible satisfaction. Totally a matter of personal preference and opinion.

 

Once you leave the realm of personal preference and opinion there just isn't any compelling evidence to support the factual claims that eating locally grown food - using whatever arbitrary boundary defines local - makes any difference at all in terms of environmental impact.

 

There's way more evidence to support the claim that transportation costs represent a relatively small fraction of the total resource inputs required to go from seed to mouth, and the best way to minimize total resource consumption is to buy things made where the comparative advantage is highest and use commercial transport networks to get them to buyers. It requires far fewer resources to to harvest salmon in Alaska and oranges in Florida and ship them across the continent than it would to grow both things locally in each place.

 

There's also quite a bit of evidence to support the claim that agricultural subsidies result in far more waste and needless resource consumption than shipping, and have been far more detrimental to local producers around the globe than any other policy. In practice, "buy local" movements tend to morph seamlessly into subsidies and protectionism, and thereby give rise to outcomes that are infinitely more harmful than shipping food over long distances.

 

Finally - when it comes to consumption, the number one determinant of total resource consumption is wealth. If you're well off enough to shop at say, whole foods - or to own a single-family home with a yard anywhere within the Seattle or Portland Metro areas, where you get your veggies isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on your total resource consumption over the course of your life. The money you save on homegrown lentils will wind up being spent on an airline trip, a flatscreen, a new couch, more climbing gear, etc, etc.

 

By all means - shop and live in a way that reflects your values and preferences. That should be it's own reward and provide you with a great deal of happiness, and will no doubt entitle you to a great deal of satisfaction. It won't entitle you to claim that you're a better person than your neighbor who buys his Iowa grown corn at Safeway because you buy yours at the farmers market, or that you'll actually consume any less resources over the course of your life than he will as a result of how you shop for your groceries.

 

 

[Lucky Larry]

If a guy really wanted to slam-spray about a totally useless wasteful hobby maybe we could start with climbing, or say maybe, the need to have a really well manicured green lawn. Everyone has different priorities, and sometimes they are shared priorities. Trying to one up someone seems to be some peoples priority. I have often taken that course myself but it never works out. I can only one up myself, hopefully, one better. Societies idols of today arguably appear to be leading mankind's future into the pitfalls of the past. In James A. Michener's novel Poland theres a line that goes something like this: history doesn't repeat itself, it never changes.

 

Lasyalpinist:Funny thing is Larry that Jay felt the need to hijack a thread about root cellars (Which are really cool!) to teach the locavores a lesson with data from the EU and an Op/Ed piece while projecting his prejudice about them being elitist.

 

Sorry about that. I'm guilty of jumping in when I haven't read the thread from the start. It doesn't seem too big of a deal on spray. Unfortunately, it seems to screw up threads on other forums which start out spray free then turn to spray. Another unfortunate thing is when I can no longer edit or delete a post completely. This is frustrating when reviewing former posts that I have made, and then wishing I hadn't made them. I know it's a weak excuse for not censuring my own mouth to begin with but there it is.

Edited November 27, 2010 by oldlarry

[lazyalpinist]

Funny thing is Larry that Jay felt the need to hijack a thread about root cellars (Which are really cool!) to teach the locavores a lesson with data from the EU and an Op/Ed piece while projecting his prejudice about them being elitist.

 

There are all kinds of perfectly satisfactory reasons for growing your own food or buying from the left-handed vegan pacifist rooptop collective. Economic and environmental benefits aren't amongst them.

 

None of Jay's data goes to support this argument. The data only goes to state that the supply chain creates less pollution than once the produce enters your kitchen. Speaking of which:

 

Just running your refrigerator for a week consumes 9,000 calories of energy. That assumes it’s one of the latest high-efficiency models; otherwise, you can double that figure.

 

An argument for root cellars of which this thread was started about. Also an argument for backyard gardening because it reduces the need for refrigeration reducing the need for a larger refrigerator, and therefore reducing the amount of electricity the refrigerator uses.

 

Once you leave the realm of personal preference and opinion there just isn't any compelling evidence to support the factual claims that eating locally grown food - using whatever arbitrary boundary defines local - makes any difference at all in terms of environmental impact.

 

Not that Jay has provided data to prove otherwise. However, it is hard to argue that a train traveling from Central Washington carrying apples to markets in Seattle uses less fuel than a train from Upstate New York traveling to Seattle to deliver apples. Now the difference may be minimal, but it still exists. As in 1.0 is less than 1.1. Evidence that it does make a difference.

 

There's way more evidence to support the claim that transportation costs represent a relatively small fraction of the total resource inputs required to go from seed to mouth,

 

True. But reducing that cost and environmental impact of transportation is still a reduction.

 

and the best way to minimize total resource consumption is to buy things made where the comparative advantage is highest and use commercial transport networks to get them to buyers. It requires far fewer resources to to harvest salmon in Alaska and oranges in Florida and ship them across the continent than it would to grow both things locally in each place.

 

Don't think anyone is really arguing with this. One reason you can't get bananas from your local CSA.

 

There's also quite a bit of evidence to support the claim that agricultural subsidies result in far more waste and needless resource consumption than shipping, and have been far more detrimental to local producers around the globe than any other policy. In practice, "buy local" movements tend to morph seamlessly into subsidies and protectionism, and thereby give rise to outcomes that are infinitely more harmful than shipping food over long distances.

 

Once again, you haven't provided any supporting data. Although I'd bet many of the locavores would argue that supporting local reduces waste and resource consumption. We all know the big factory farms would rather get subsidies for corn and let the surplus rot than send it to areas in the world where food is needed. Not sure your local farmer has that surplus.

 

Finally - when it comes to consumption, the number one determinant of total resource consumption is wealth. If you're well off enough to shop at say, whole foods - or to own a single-family home with a yard anywhere within the Seattle or Portland Metro areas, where you get your veggies isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on your total resource consumption over the course of your life. The money you save on homegrown lentils will wind up being spent on an airline trip, a flatscreen, a new couch, more climbing gear, etc, etc.

 

I can't believe you made that claim. No impact? That is silly. Once again, if I grow my own garden and benefit from that by say using a smaller (less energy use refrigerator), and less CO2 causing trips to the grocery store there is no impact? Yes, it is possible that the environmental and economic benefits of a backyard garden can be offset by traveling by plane [And since we're on the topic of bulk transport, isn't one flight a year causing less pollution than the 6000 miles I drive each year?] or buying climbing gear. But, I am most likely going to travel and buy gear no matter what, so not having a backyard garden would make my footprint bigger and my wallet thinner. I am just doing what I can to reduce my impact, while still live a life I choose.

 

By all means - shop and live in a way that reflects your values and preferences. That should be it's own reward and provide you with a great deal of happiness, and will no doubt entitle you to a great deal of satisfaction.

 

I do. Thank you.

 

It won't entitle you to claim that you're a better person than your neighbor who buys his Iowa grown corn at Safeway because you buy yours at the farmers market, or that you'll actually consume any less resources over the course of your life than he will as a result of how you shop for your groceries.

 

I don't claim I'm a better person, although I am sure there are some out there that do. But you are projecting that image on the locavores as a whole. And without single life to life comparisons, it would be impossible to tell who uses more resources in a lifetime.

[denalidave]

Funny thing is Larry that Jay felt the need to hijack a thread about root cellars (Which are really cool!) to teach the locavores a lesson with data from the EU and an Op/Ed piece while projecting his prejudice about them being elitist.

 

There are all kinds of perfectly satisfactory reasons for growing your own food or buying from the left-handed vegan pacifist rooptop collective. Economic and environmental benefits aren't amongst them.

 

None of Jay's data goes to support this argument. The data only goes to state that the supply chain creates less pollution than once the produce enters your kitchen. Speaking of which:

 

Just running your refrigerator for a week consumes 9,000 calories of energy. That assumes it’s one of the latest high-efficiency models; otherwise, you can double that figure.

 

An argument for root cellars of which this thread was started about. Also an argument for backyard gardening because it reduces the need for refrigeration reducing the need for a larger refrigerator, and therefore reducing the amount of electricity the refrigerator uses.

 

Once you leave the realm of personal preference and opinion there just isn't any compelling evidence to support the factual claims that eating locally grown food - using whatever arbitrary boundary defines local - makes any difference at all in terms of environmental impact.

 

Not that Jay has provided data to prove otherwise. However, it is hard to argue that a train traveling from Central Washington carrying apples to markets in Seattle uses less fuel than a train from Upstate New York traveling to Seattle to deliver apples. Now the difference may be minimal, but it still exists. As in 1.0 is less than 1.1. Evidence that it does make a difference.

 

There's way more evidence to support the claim that transportation costs represent a relatively small fraction of the total resource inputs required to go from seed to mouth,

 

True. But reducing that cost and environmental impact of transportation is still a reduction.

 

and the best way to minimize total resource consumption is to buy things made where the comparative advantage is highest and use commercial transport networks to get them to buyers. It requires far fewer resources to to harvest salmon in Alaska and oranges in Florida and ship them across the continent than it would to grow both things locally in each place.

 

Don't think anyone is really arguing with this. One reason you can't get bananas from your local CSA.

 

There's also quite a bit of evidence to support the claim that agricultural subsidies result in far more waste and needless resource consumption than shipping, and have been far more detrimental to local producers around the globe than any other policy. In practice, "buy local" movements tend to morph seamlessly into subsidies and protectionism, and thereby give rise to outcomes that are infinitely more harmful than shipping food over long distances.

 

Once again, you haven't provided any supporting data. Although I'd bet many of the locavores would argue that supporting local reduces waste and resource consumption. We all know the big factory farms would rather get subsidies for corn and let the surplus rot than send it to areas in the world where food is needed. Not sure your local farmer has that surplus.

 

Finally - when it comes to consumption, the number one determinant of total resource consumption is wealth. If you're well off enough to shop at say, whole foods - or to own a single-family home with a yard anywhere within the Seattle or Portland Metro areas, where you get your veggies isn't going to have any impact whatsoever on your total resource consumption over the course of your life. The money you save on homegrown lentils will wind up being spent on an airline trip, a flatscreen, a new couch, more climbing gear, etc, etc.

 

I can't believe you made that claim. No impact? That is silly. Once again, if I grow my own garden and benefit from that by say using a smaller (less energy use refrigerator), and less CO2 causing trips to the grocery store there is no impact? Yes, it is possible that the environmental and economic benefits of a backyard garden can be offset by traveling by plane [And since we're on the topic of bulk transport, isn't one flight a year causing less pollution than the 6000 miles I drive each year?] or buying climbing gear. But, I am most likely going to travel and buy gear no matter what, so not having a backyard garden would make my footprint bigger and my wallet thinner. I am just doing what I can to reduce my impact, while still live a life I choose.

 

By all means - shop and live in a way that reflects your values and preferences. That should be it's own reward and provide you with a great deal of happiness, and will no doubt entitle you to a great deal of satisfaction.

 

I do. Thank you.

 

It won't entitle you to claim that you're a better person than your neighbor who buys his Iowa grown corn at Safeway because you buy yours at the farmers market, or that you'll actually consume any less resources over the course of your life than he will as a result of how you shop for your groceries.

 

I don't claim I'm a better person, although I am sure there are some out there that do. But you are projecting that image on the locavores as a whole. And without single life to life comparisons, it would be impossible to tell who uses more resources in a lifetime.

Well put Lazy. However, this thoughtful post makes me wonder if you are really as lazy as your moniker suggests??? Hmmmm

[AlpineK]

I don't have the endurance or time to read through all Jay's posts. I did laugh when he mentioned how he and or his gf had to buy new potting soil every year so they could, "farm." Apparently they don't understand the concept of soil management.

 

As far as economics go less is less. Just because you don't have a perfect system doesn't mean you shouldn't make a few changes.

[G-spotter]

I did laugh when he mentioned how he and or his gf had to buy new potting soil every year so they could, "farm." Apparently they don't understand the concept of soil management.

 

Only the most boutique yuppie "soil" will suit him, purchased for $700/bag from Whole Soils.

[billcoe]

I went skiing today and thought of this thread a tad. Basically thinking that what I was going to say has been said now.

 

Thanks Lazy A and Lazy Larry!

[denalidave]

I don't have the endurance or time to read through all Jay's posts.

This was my first time reading ALL of one of his posts. Normally, I get about two lines in and realize I don't want to spend an hour soaking it up. I'm an admitted simpleton and likely don't have the high skewl reading skill needed to understand all dat sofistakated jargon, pie graffs and rithmatic.

[ryanb]

I'm thinking of the work/energy theorem. Which scenario increases entropy the least?

 

I like it.

 

Nothing more objective than that.

 

If you aren't hashing together the blueprints for Entropos, LLC - the green certifying company to end *all* green-certifying companies right now, you're doing both your bank account and the planet a grave, grave disservice....

 

The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems ... plant growth actually decreases (local) entropy thanks to the giant glowing ball in the sky beaming energy at us.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2010 by ryanb

[lazyalpinist]

Well put Lazy. However, this thoughtful post makes me wonder if you are really as lazy as your moniker suggests???

 

You caught me. I typed that up between stirrings of the (Washington State) candied yams and apples I was making.

 

I went skiing today and thought of this thread a tad. Basically thinking that what I was going to say has been said now.

 

Thanks Lazy A and Lazy Larry!

 

Your welcome Bill. Your previous post is what inspired me.

 

Now on to root cellars. Anybody got one, use one?

 

I always leave my carrots in the ground until I need 'em. (About five left from my April sowing out there now.) I'd prefer to pull them, but I fear stuffing them in a box of sawdust in the basement. But when I leave them in the bugs get to them more. What do people do?

 

 

[G-spotter]

I stick them in the unheated mudroom. Works great for the coldest 6 months of the year.The other 6 months of he year I eat fresh stuff from my garden. Haven't had to buy soil yet, except some special sandy stuff for my window cactus

[lazyalpinist]

What type of container?

[G-spotter]

in a old burlap coffee* bag

 

*now waiting for JayB to chide me as hypocritical for drinking nonlocal coffee

[lazyalpinist]

Just loose in the bag?

[G-spotter]

yes

[JayB]

Lazy-guy:

 

I'm glad that growing your own vegetables makes you happy and feel better about yourself.

 

If believing that the unmeasurably sub-trivial impact that doing so has on your personal resource consumption, much less on the planet as a whole, is an important part of the satisfaction that you derive from these behaviors then by all means keep indulging in that too!

 

Don't let someone like me who points out that keeping the temp in your house above 40 for the next 24 hours will probably outweigh a year or more of selfless devotion to minimizing your impact. Ditto for watching TV, running a computer, keeping the lights on after dark, taking hot showers, and pretty much all of the activities beyond bare subsistence that you engage in just as much as the cousin-humping, knuckle-draggers barreling down the highway in their F350 en-route to a Walmart shopping binge.

 

Now I'm off to negate all of your sacrifices by driving myself up to the pass to try out some non-locally sourced, inorganic ski gear.

 

Cheers.

[prole]

Powerlessness To The People!

[prole]

Lazy-guy:

 

I'm glad that growing your own vegetables makes you happy and feel better about yourself.

 

If believing that the unmeasurably sub-trivial impact that doing so has on your personal resource consumption, much less on the planet as a whole, is an important part of the satisfaction that you derive from these behaviors then by all means keep indulging in that too!

 

Don't let someone like me who points out that keeping the temp in your house above 40 for the next 24 hours will probably outweigh a year or more of selfless devotion to minimizing your impact. Ditto for watching TV, running a computer, keeping the lights on after dark, taking hot showers, and pretty much all of the activities beyond bare subsistence that you engage in just as much as the cousin-humping, knuckle-draggers barreling down the highway in their F350 en-route to a Walmart shopping binge.

 

Now I'm off to negate all of your sacrifices by driving myself up to the pass to try out some non-locally sourced, inorganic ski gear.

 

Cheers.

 

It's quite amazing that you can reconcile this view with your fetishization of the consumer and their seemingly limitless power to influence markets and corporate behavior. Does anyone around here buy your "objectivity" anymore?