Will Jesus make me a better climber if I pray?

[Dirtyleaf]

Seriously. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. If I go to church do you think Jesus power will make me climb harder??? Because, if Jesus helps me climb harder.....

[summitchaserCJB]

That is a big can of worms. First, I think it is kinda silly to say what you said how you said it. In other words, if Jesus exists and you know it to be true, then it is almost an intellectual imperative that you believe in him. This is not the case in the world today. So it is not a question of whether Jesus can make you climb harder but does Jesus exist.

Okay. Now onto the hard part. Then you have the issue of prayer. This brings up the issue of God's (I'll operate from the idea of the triune God here) omniscience and omnipotence. Personally I believe that God knows what will happen in the future.

There is a classic argument called the pancake argument. It goes something like this (forgive me it has been a few years so this is a rough sketch):

I can choose to have pancakes today.

I plan to have pancakes today.

God knows my thoughts about eating pancakes.

Instead, I choose waffles.

 

So, did I change God's mind? My answer to this is no, because God knew what I was going to eventually choose.

Okay, so what is the point and how does this relate to climbing?

Well choosing waffles is sort of like asking God for something. Why pray? Is it possible to change God's will? Can we be smarter than God by telling him to change the course of history based on our human wills? I don't really know. But I know that God knows what will eventually happen and he can basically pick and choose what he wants to be done. That is my best summary.

 

[marc_leclerc]

Well, I think that if you beleive in God, then you must also believe that he created you and gave you your abilities and talents. Once you beleive this, then you will know that you are honouring God by using the talents and abilities he gave you, and when you honor and please God in that way then perhaps he could give you that extra boost to send?

[rocky_joe]

how is this not in spray?

[marc_leclerc]

And about the prayer. Praying to be better at something for your own endevours is selfish. I don't think God smiles upon and rewards selfish endevours.

[tvashtarkatena]

That is a big can of worms. First, I think it is kinda silly to say what you said how you said it. In other words, if Jesus exists and you know it to be true, then it is almost an intellectual imperative that you believe in him. This is not the case in the world today. So it is not a question of whether Jesus can make you climb harder but does Jesus exist.

Okay. Now onto the hard part. Then you have the issue of prayer. This brings up the issue of God's (I'll operate from the idea of the triune God here) omniscience and omnipotence. Personally I believe that God knows what will happen in the future.

There is a classic argument called the pancake argument. It goes something like this (forgive me it has been a few years so this is a rough sketch):

I can choose to have pancakes today.

I plan to have pancakes today.

God knows my thoughts about eating pancakes.

Instead, I choose waffles.

 

So, did I change God's mind? My answer to this is no, because God knew what I was going to eventually choose.

Okay, so what is the point and how does this relate to climbing?

Well choosing waffles is sort of like asking God for something. Why pray? Is it possible to change God's will? Can we be smarter than God by telling him to change the course of history based on our human wills? I don't really know. But I know that God knows what will eventually happen and he can basically pick and choose what he wants to be done. That is my best summary.

 

Ivan? Is that you?

[summitchaserCJB]

No.

[shapp]

I prayed to Jesus? (really directed at any diety listening) on the subject, she told me to in order of importance:

 

Spend less time on CCsprayers

 

Climb outside more

 

Lose weight

 

read Arno's book

 

increase stretching and flexibility

 

Train 3 days per week

 

 

Edited January 28, 2010 by shapp

[Dirtyleaf]

Wow. Thank you for the well thought out responses. Shapp: I appreciate your direct approach at life and realism. I wonder about those who have tapped into...something extraordinary. Todd Skinner, John Bachar, Peter Croft, Michael Reardon,..were any of these guys regular church goers of the religious sort? Something tells me no. From what I've read about these guys they have had many spiritual experiences through climbing. But I just don't hear many stories about "Higher powers", something greater than oneself. I'm just interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.

[Dirtyleaf]

And yes, this is a double edged sword. Figure it out.

[ericb]

Wow. Thank you for the well thought out responses. Shapp: I appreciate your direct approach at life and realism. I wonder about those who have tapped into...something extraordinary. Todd Skinner, John Bachar, Peter Croft, Michael Reardon,..were any of these guys regular church goers of the religious sort? Something tells me no. From what I've read about these guys they have had many spiritual experiences through climbing. But I just don't hear many stories about "Higher powers", something greater than oneself. I'm just interested to hear what others have to say on the subject.

 

If you have a family and/or children, praying may have the reverse effect in my experience. Spending time with Jesus will likely deepen that relationship, and in so doing likely transform you more and more into his likeness. This by extension should make you a more loving more selfless person, specifically to those in your immediate sphere of influence - most notably your family. I believe loving your children means spending more (vs. less) time with them, and providing for them spiritually, emotionally, and financially. It's pretty tough to pay for their college when you are dead. Christianity at its' core is believing in something greater than yourself, which seems to be the antithesis of climbing.

 

Edited January 28, 2010 by ericb

[G-spotter]

If you go to church that's that much less time you have to climb and train. Hence you will be a worse climber. End of story.

[markwebster]

I grew up in a religious family. I love my family members, but I was unable to jump on the religion bandwagon. I tried, went through confirmation and everything, it just didn't make sense.I believe religion is the opiate for the masses.

 

People who believe in, and want, an afterlife are too weak to handle the fact that we die. Period. Enjoy it while you can, as you could get run over by a car tomorrow.

 

That being said, I do think the ten commandments are a pretty good idea. If more people followed the golden rule, the world would be a better place.

 

Will prayer help your climbing? You have nothing to lose by trying, but reading Arno's book might be a better use of your time.

 

Sorry if I offended any religious people out there, but I think that far too many people have died (and are still dieing) in the name of religion. Can you say the crusades? The middle East?

 

And yes, this should be in spray

[Off_White]

how is this not in spray?

 

I'm wondering this too. I'm familiar with Mr. Leaf's contributions, and I wouldn't have picked him for an individual bucking for a religious conversion. It's ostensibly climbing related, so we'll let it run for now...

[tvashtarkatena]

If you've been to the mountains much and still feel the need to look to a 2000 year old dead guy for 'something greater than yourself', you might think about opening your eyes a bit wider.

 

Also, the conjecture that religiosity somehow makes one 'more selfless' than them heathens is complete crap. Jesus or no Jesus, that behavior or lack thereof comes from within.

Edited January 28, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

If you go to church that's that much less time you have to climb and train. Hence you will be a worse climber. End of story.

 

I'd rather be in the mountains thinking about God, than in Church thinking about the mountains.

[Water]

this thread is spray

 

if you want to use your mind when not actually climbing or reading or doing anything climbing related, I'd visualize and do positive thinking loops about success and accomplishing things that seem impossible, etc, and not worry about religion.

 

my personal take after too much time swimming through jungian readings and process is that the only "divinity" that exists is that within you, which is also within everyone. everything is reflection of your inner`ness: "my heart is in the universe, the universe is in my heart. my heart is in the earth, the earth is in my heart"

[tvashtarkatena]

Climbing is also not 'selfish'. It is connection with the natural world. Such a connection is a fundamental and healthy human need. And speaking of children; it seems like more of such connection might make for a better future.

[Kimmo]

anything that makes you feel better/good will potentially help you climb better. whether it's meditation, prayer, chanting, drugs, helping your neighbor, etc.

 

although i don't think jesus will make you do a damn thing, since he's kinda dead and stuff, i think.

[marc_leclerc]

Climbing is also not 'selfish'. It is connection with the natural world. Such a connection is a fundamental and healthy human need. And speaking of children; it seems like more of such connection might make for a better future.

 

wanting to be better at something is selfish.. not neccesarily the activity you want to be better at.

[XXX]

Sorry if I offended any religious people out there, but I think that far too many people have died (and are still dieing) in the name of religion. Can you say the crusades? The middle East?

 

 

What a COP out. Your argument is full of holes. Religion is not the reason why people kill each other. However religion may be used as a tool by some to destroy others.

 

There are plenty of world dictators and evil men I.E. Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler who had no need for Christianity or Islam. People will find plenty ways to kill one another. Sure religion may be used as an excuse, but I can think of alot of excuses that humans use to kill one another. I.E. race, class, economics, technology.

Edited January 28, 2010 by XXX

[Kimmo]

Climbing is also not 'selfish'. It is connection with the natural world. Such a connection is a fundamental and healthy human need. And speaking of children; it seems like more of such connection might make for a better future.

 

wanting to be better at something is selfish.. not neccesarily the activity you want to be better at.

 

only if you desire that improvement for ego gratification methinks. the idea of "improvement" is kinda tricky....what if you want to become a "better" person, ie "improve"; would that be selfish?

[Bug]

Regardless of how you choose to define the basis for your self understanding, a deeper understanding of your holistic self is likely to improve your climbing.

From a Christian perspective, I would say that anything that enhances the relationship is healthy.

 

My most profound spiritual experiences were in Yosemite.

 

[XXX]

Just one more thought. Climbing itself is not selfish, but in my experience those who climb the most tend to be a bit self centered and selfish.

[Kimmo]

climbing itself is what it is for the person; it doesn't have any intrinsic objective reality.