truth!

[StevenSeagal]

 

This is pure horseshit. Muslim societies were practically inventing mathematics, astronomy, law, exploring the globe, etc. etc. etc. while Europe was scratching around in the dirt for tubers. The kind of ahistorical nonsense you're spewing is a debunked, disproven Clash of Civilizations rehash. Get real.

 

exploring the globe? You mean those armies overrunning north Africa and eastern Europe spreading the good word via the sword? That sort of exploration?

 

How are Muslim socities coming along with human rights, tolerance of non believers, women, freedom of speech, due process, etc?

[Jim]

 

The old testament of the bible is largely ignored today, thankfully...

 

The Jews may think otherwise.

[j_b]

How are Muslim socities coming along with human rights, tolerance of non believers, women, freedom of speech, due process, etc?

 

Not only are these advances very tenuous in many judeo-christian liberal democracies, but they are in fact quite recent (less than a century).

[prole]

read your history, prole, and take a read through the Koran. To say nothing of other faiths, Islam has from its inception been a miltant religion of conquest. It is not going away therefore the hope is it will transform itself from within to coexist with modern civil society. That might come in the form of a new testament of sorts. The old testament of the bible is largely ignored today, thankfully, for it's a frightfully barbaric tome. The Koran isn't any different yet there's a billion faithful right now who read it daily. Pretending that organized religion in general isn't dangerous, or one in particular isn't just because of your politics surrounding it demand you give it empathy- well to me that is kinda silly.

 

Are you in the Kojak School of Showing Your Bare Ignorant Ass today, or what? Don't tell the 13 million Jews around the world that the Old Testament is a dead, irrelevant text. Don't tell the millions killed in the Christian Crusades, the Inquisition, the religious wars that swept Europe in the late-Middle Ages, or the indigenous populations of the Americas that were tortured until they were converted or killed that the New Testament is all about love. How religious texts are interpreted and acted upon is all about the historical political and economic context. Nothing else. You want to see a resurgence of Christian radicalism in the US? We keep going in the direction we're headed and I guaranfuckingtee that you will. Shit, look at the discourse among the large evangelical population in the US military. They're interpreting and acting on New Testament texts in a way that is nothing if not devoted to global purification and conquest, to holy war. You got your shit all backwards. As a 20th Century "spiritual warrior" killing street thugs and terrorists in the employ of the Man, you of all people, should understand this.

[prole]

How are Muslim socities coming along with human rights, tolerance of non believers, women, freedom of speech, due process, etc?

 

Uh, many were actually doing quite well in all these areas in the post-colonial 1950's and 60's under secular leadership educated in the West, influenced by Left ideas and dedicated to national economic and political development. The US took care of that right quick and gave us Bin Laden. Remember?

[tvashtarkatena]

right, that's all it would take to launch the culture 600 years into the present and rewrite the Koran so it no longer explicitly and repeatedly teaches its readers to despise non believers.

 

I agree that our politics are not helping matters and in fact fueling the fire, but beyond that ascribing the whole conflict to politics is willful ignorance.

 

Obfuscating the ongoing historical development of the Middle East, the process by which a potent strain of militant Islam came into existence, and how and when people are radicalized around ethnic, religious, tribal, and national identities by pretending that the Koran is a sort of timebomb set in the 7th Century is kinda silly.

 

read your history, prole, and take a read through the Koran. To say nothing of other faiths, Islam has from its inception been a miltant religion of conquest. It is not going away therefore the hope is it will transform itself from within to coexist with modern civil society. That might come in the form of a new testament of sorts. The old testament of the bible is largely ignored today, thankfully, for it's a frightfully barbaric tome. The Koran isn't any different yet there's a billion faithful right now who read it daily. Pretending that organized religion in general isn't dangerous, or one in particular isn't just because of your politics surrounding it demand you give it empathy- well to me that is kinda silly.

 

That's actually pretty far from the mark. Mohammad did unify what was to become Arabia, partly through military means, partly through commerce, but he was primarily a reformer. Ironically, women's rights, for example, improved dramatically under his reign (they had none prior to it). This makes sense, as he was married to an older, very wealthy merchant who wielded much influence.

 

It seems that Mohammad's primary focus throughout his life was to create order out of chaos to improve the commercial and social situation in his region. His followers, of course, have since splintered and morphed him into whatever their sects require at the time...just like Jebus.

 

The whole WOT thing is not a primarily religious conflict; it is a political one. Religion is simply a tool used for recruiting. Even the Taliban, which wraps itself so famously in the Koran, is driven by the lust for absolute power more than the establishment of any kind of religious paradise on earth. Take a look at what happened after the Islamic Revolution in Iran and what I'm saying is obvious. That regime's thugs immediately began violating the Koran; officially sanctioned rape comes to mind, after they took power.

 

The formula is simple: take a 20 year old, give him a gun, a uniform, and tell him you can make anyone who is not one of us do whatever you want. In the name of Islam, the State, Freedom whatever. The cause doesn't really matter. He'll be beating, raping, and killing The Indidels, the Gooks, or Hadji the Goatherder in no time.

Edited January 7, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

SAVAGE HENRY HAS CASHED HIS CHECK!!!

[StevenSeagal]

Relax, prole, at least I'm not promoting the conservitard strategy of "kill 'em all" etc. My whole rant started from kevgump's simplistic assertion that all we need to do is pull out of the middle east and all will be fine.

 

I generally agree with your usual points but I don't trust any religious based movements for anything and you shouldn't either. I don't think anyone should get a free pass. Citing all of the past and current atrocities of christians doesn't change the violence and power seeking of the other. And excusing/ explaining away the latter as a simple reaction to the west is a mistake. It is in part a reaction- opportunistically- and it is also a direct action.

 

Lumping me in with kojak? Hey, sorry for the confusion, but this is kevbone's thread so anything goes.

[StevenSeagal]

right, that's all it would take to launch the culture 600 years into the present and rewrite the Koran so it no longer explicitly and repeatedly teaches its readers to despise non believers.

 

I agree that our politics are not helping matters and in fact fueling the fire, but beyond that ascribing the whole conflict to politics is willful ignorance.

 

Obfuscating the ongoing historical development of the Middle East, the process by which a potent strain of militant Islam came into existence, and how and when people are radicalized around ethnic, religious, tribal, and national identities by pretending that the Koran is a sort of timebomb set in the 7th Century is kinda silly.

 

read your history, prole, and take a read through the Koran. To say nothing of other faiths, Islam has from its inception been a miltant religion of conquest. It is not going away therefore the hope is it will transform itself from within to coexist with modern civil society. That might come in the form of a new testament of sorts. The old testament of the bible is largely ignored today, thankfully, for it's a frightfully barbaric tome. The Koran isn't any different yet there's a billion faithful right now who read it daily. Pretending that organized religion in general isn't dangerous, or one in particular isn't just because of your politics surrounding it demand you give it empathy- well to me that is kinda silly.

 

That's actually pretty far from the mark. Mohammad did unify what was to become Arabia, partly through military means, partly through commerce, but he was primarily a reformer. Ironically, women's rights, for example, improved dramatically under his reign (they had none prior to it). This makes sense, as he was married to an older, very wealthy merchant who wielded much influence.

 

It seems that Mohammad's primary focus throughout his life was to create order out of chaos to improve the commercial and social situation in his region. His followers, of course, have since splintered and morphed him into whatever their sects require at the time...just like Jebus.

 

The whole WOT thing is not a primarily religious conflict; it is a political one. Religion is simply a tool used for recruiting. Even the Taliban, which wraps itself so famously in the Koran, is driven by the lust for absolute power more than the establishment of any kind of religious paradise on earth. Take a look at what happened after the Islamic Revolution in Iran and what I'm saying is obvious. That regime's thugs immediately began violating the Koran; officially sanctioned rape comes to mind, after they took power.

 

The formula is simple: take a 20 year old, give him a gun, a uniform, and tell him you can make anyone who is not one of us do whatever you want. In the name of Islam, the State, Freedom whatever. The cause doesn't really matter. He'll be beating, raping, and killing The Indidels, the Gooks, or Hadji the Goatherder in no time.

 

didn't Muhammad also marry a 9 year old girl?

 

The last paragraph exemplifies precisely why religion and nationalism are so dangerous.

[kevbone]

My whole rant started from kevgump's simplistic assertion that all we need to do is pull out of the middle east and all will be fine.

 

 

What ever.....what would you do if the Afgan army was occupying the US and they were killing our people? I know I would try to get them out, in whatever way possible.

When is our country going to learn from the past? We already expelled an occupying army back in the 1700's to be free. Now we occupy Afghanistan and Iraq solely for a pipeline.

I believe this entire reason of “war on terror” is a rouse. It is just a smoke screen. Half the shit you hear on the radio or read in the paper is a lie.

 

Yes….SS. Pulling our presents out of the Middle East would improve how the world views us greatly. Might not make is perfect but it would be a huge start.

 

[StevenSeagal]

Oh and my apologies to the Jews, you can keep the old testament. Please don't kill me if I work on Sunday.

 

I once had a hardcore evangelical tell me the new testament cancelled out the old because God had to clarify himself to man.

 

I guess, "some new shit had come to light, man..."

[StevenSeagal]

My whole rant started from kevgump's simplistic assertion that all we need to do is pull out of the middle east and all will be fine.

 

 

What ever.....what would you do if the Afgan army was occupying the US and they were killing our people? I know I would try to get them out, in whatever way possible.

When is our country going to learn from the past? We already expelled an occupying army back in the 1700's to be free. Now we occupy Afghanistan and Iraq solely for a pipeline.

I believe this entire reason of “war on terror” is a rouse. It is just a smoke screen. Half the shit you hear on the radio or read in the paper is a lie.

 

Yes….SS. Pulling our presents out of the Middle East would improve how the world views us greatly. Might not make is perfect but it would be a huge start.

 

if we pull out our presents then we won't get any presents either. What kind of Christmas would that be?

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

My whole rant started from kevgump's simplistic assertion that all we need to do is pull out of the middle east and all will be fine.

 

 

What ever.....what would you do if the Afgan army was occupying the US and they were killing our people? I know I would try to get them out, in whatever way possible.

When is our country going to learn from the past? We already expelled an occupying army back in the 1700's to be free. Now we occupy Afghanistan and Iraq solely for a pipeline.

I believe this entire reason of “war on terror” is a rouse. It is just a smoke screen. Half the shit you hear on the radio or read in the paper is a lie.

 

Yes….SS. Pulling our presents out of the Middle East would improve how the world views us greatly. Might not make is perfect but it would be a huge start.

 

if we pull out our presents then we won't get any presents either. What kind of Christmas would that be?

 

Speaking of pulling-out, Boner's still unable to pull his out of his ass

[kevbone]

My whole rant started from kevgump's simplistic assertion that all we need to do is pull out of the middle east and all will be fine.

 

 

What ever.....what would you do if the Afgan army was occupying the US and they were killing our people? I know I would try to get them out, in whatever way possible.

When is our country going to learn from the past? We already expelled an occupying army back in the 1700's to be free. Now we occupy Afghanistan and Iraq solely for a pipeline.

I believe this entire reason of “war on terror” is a rouse. It is just a smoke screen. Half the shit you hear on the radio or read in the paper is a lie.

 

Yes….SS. Pulling our presents out of the Middle East would improve how the world views us greatly. Might not make is perfect but it would be a huge start.

 

if we pull out our presents then we won't get any presents either. What kind of Christmas would that be?

 

Speaking of pulling-out, Boner's still unable to pull his out of his ass

 

Are you one of those right wing wackos that actually believe that occupying another country that did not attack us is good for the US? Talk about head in ass syndrome.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

 

 

didn't Muhammad also marry a 9 year old girl?

 

No. Mohammad was married to the same woman monogamously for 25 years. After her death, he took other wives. During this period, he contracted with the father of a 7 to 9 year old to marry his daughter. The marriage took place 5 years later. Such a practice was perfectly normal for the times, and indeed, remains 'normal' today; a 14 year old may marry legally, with a judges permission, right here in the good ole US of A in some states.

[tvashtarkatena]

Those states would all be in the Bible Belt, of course. Gotta deal with all that teen pregnancy somehow, In Jesus' Name!

[prole]

I generally agree with your usual points but I don't trust any religious based movements for anything and you shouldn't either. I don't think anyone should get a free pass. Citing all of the past and current atrocities of christians doesn't change the violence and power seeking of the other. And excusing/ explaining away the latter as a simple reaction to the west is a mistake. It is in part a reaction- opportunistically- and it is also a direct action.

 

I'm not giving any religion a free pass. My point is all religions have the potential to catalyze and provide coherence to political violence depending on the historical circumstances. Demonizing "Islam" as the root cause for the rise of militant fringe movements or that violence is exceptionally "hardwired" into it is nonsense.

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

I generally agree with your usual points but I don't trust any religious based movements for anything and you shouldn't either. I don't think anyone should get a free pass. Citing all of the past and current atrocities of christians doesn't change the violence and power seeking of the other. And excusing/ explaining away the latter as a simple reaction to the west is a mistake. It is in part a reaction- opportunistically- and it is also a direct action.

 

I'm not giving any religion a free pass. My point is all religions have the potential to catalyze and provide coherence to political violence depending on the historical circumstances. Demonizing "Islam" as the root cause for the rise of militant fringe movements or that violence is exceptionally "hardwired" into it is nonsense.

 

 

There is nothing "coherent" about violence.

 

Sorry but I think the whole psychological process behind both Islam and Christianity has been hardwired with violence. Christianity has moderated itself externally but the same potential is still lurking. Islam remains unabasedly violent externally, admittedly due in part to politics and history. It doesn't mean that their cultures and rights have not been violated and plundered by the west nor does it lessen this injustice.

 

Simply removing our armies- which I favor- is not going to solve the problem alone.

[billcoe]

pull out the crusaders and send in the Mormons and the McDonalds and all will be right as rain...

[StevenSeagal]

The Bacon forum is an insult to Islam and I am sending martyrs to blow up this thread in retaliation.

[prole]

Simply removing our armies- which I favor- is not going to solve the problem alone.

 

No shit. But there are already moderates and secular movements, progressive and otherwise within those societies. There have been for years and in some cases they've been quite successful. Unfortunately, the US was doing it's best to undermine and destroy them when those forces were much stronger than they are today. Now look who we get to deal with.

 

Fucking liberals, economists, technocrats, etc. don't seem to understand that the global poor, women suffering under patriarchies, peasants,and the rest don't want the US's help, they want us to get out of their way and let them change their own societies. You want to help? Pull the fuck out, stop propping up dictators and oil monarchies, stop plundering their resources and trying to turn them into Walmart consumers, and give their homegrown progressive movements some resources and some space to do what needs to be done. Sheesh.

Edited January 8, 2010 by prole

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Simply removing our armies- which I favor- is not going to solve the problem alone.

 

No shit. But there are already moderates and secular movements, progressive and otherwise within those societies. There have been for years and in some cases they've been quite successful. Unfortunately, the US was doing it's best to undermine and destroy them when those forces were much stronger than they are today. Now look who we get to deal with.

 

Fucking liberals, economists, technocrats, etc. don't seem to understand that the global poor, women suffering under patriarchies, peasants,and the rest don't want the US's help, they want us to get out of their way and let them change their own societies. You want to help? Pull the fuck out, stop propping up dictators and oil monarchies, stop plundering their resources and trying to turn them into Walmart consumers, and give their homegrown progressive movements some resources and some space to do what needs to be done. Sheesh.

 

every time I think you could not possibly be more clueless...

 

 

[Mtguide]

The Bacon forum is an insult to Islam and I am sending martyrs to blow up this thread in retaliation.

 

Don't forget to tell them that 76 virgin pigs await them in heaven...

[selkirk]

mmm

bacon .....

[prole]

Simply removing our armies- which I favor- is not going to solve the problem alone.

 

No shit. But there are already moderates and secular movements, progressive and otherwise within those societies. There have been for years and in some cases they've been quite successful. Unfortunately, the US was doing it's best to undermine and destroy them when those forces were much stronger than they are today. Now look who we get to deal with.

 

Fucking liberals, economists, technocrats, etc. don't seem to understand that the global poor, women suffering under patriarchies, peasants,and the rest don't want the US's help, they want us to get out of their way and let them change their own societies. You want to help? Pull the fuck out, stop propping up dictators and oil monarchies, stop plundering their resources and trying to turn them into Walmart consumers, and give their homegrown progressive movements some resources and some space to do what needs to be done. Sheesh.

 

every time I think you could not possibly be more clueless...

 

 

Of course your bloody-minded anti-communism and interventionism in the region has been a huge success, right? Iran being a case in point where a popular secular leadership, happy to sell oil to the West if not allow the wealth to be suctioned out of the country, was not good enough for Standard Oil and the American Idiots pissing their pants (needlessly) that the country would "go commie". One coup and one America-friendly dictatorship bent on squashing its enemies on the Left later and we get an Islamic Revolution and three generations of Iranians that hate America. Great work! Gold Star!