Joe's a Liar

[ivan]

i can't like any man who bears so creepy a resemblance to mr. tanner

 

[ivan]

Seriously, Fairweather. Do you know ANYTHING about acupuncture?

i know asking for a "happy ending" at the end of the session is potentially dangerous

[mattp]

i know asking for a "happy ending" at the end of the session is potentially dangerous

 

Last time I saw him my acupuncture guy hooked up wires with alligator clips to transmit energy. It was kind of like the pictures from Abu Ghraib. It didn't do much for that particular condition, but then again neither did six months of drugs that had bad side effects, doctor prescribed physical therapy (made it worse) and three diagnostic scans that each cost over $1,000.

[j_b]

For the record, Obama endorsed Lieberman for reelection against a strong progressive candidate in 2006 and left him with his committee chairmanships in the senate despite his support for McCain during the campaign (one among many back-stab).

 

Newsflash, tool: Obama doesn't run the Senate or hand out chairmanships.

 

Sorry for interjecting some reality into your delusional rant about Lieberman but hairsplitting isn't going to be very helpful at this point.

 

We all know you'd welcome Attila's obstruction to progress, there is no need to pretend the dude has integrity.

[olyclimber]

I'M OLD GREG!

[pink]

gregg

 

[olyclimber]

i did home economics. got an A+.

[G-spotter]

Maybe that was before his one-time fellow Democrats FUCKED HIM IN THE ASS.

 

Do you think he got the Creedence back?

[tvashtarkatena]

 

Main Entry: placebo effect

Function: noun

: improvement in the condition of a patient that occurs in response to treatment but cannot be considered due to the specific treatment used

 

I repeat my question. Do you know anything about it?

 

The American Medical Association's statement:

 

American Medical Association statement

In 1997, the following statement was adopted as policy of the American Medical Association (AMA), an association of medical doctors and medical students, after a report on a number of alternative therapies including acupuncture:

 

"There is little evidence to confirm the safety or efficacy of most alternative therapies. Much of the information currently known about these therapies makes it clear that many have not been shown to be efficacious. Well-designed, stringently controlled research should be done to evaluate the efficacy of alternative therapies."

 

Specifically regarding acupuncture, the AMA cited reviews conducted in 1992 and 1993 that stated there was not enough evidence to support acupuncture's effectiveness in treating disease, and called for further research.

 

Soooooooo

 

neither FW nor the AMA know a damn thing about acupuncture.

 

It's kind of amusing, but not terribly so, how most of FW's posts are his own worst enemy.

 

Just sayin....

[Fairweather]

You're one of the last people here whom I would expect to see subscribing to voodoo nonsense like this. Of course, no one's ever accused you of being consistently dumb. BTW: was that you I was talking to on top of Granite Mtn. this past Saturday?

[tvashtarkatena]

No, I was not on Granite Mountain last Saturday. I was sitting in an unmarked van with the engine idling just down the street from your house, like every Saturday.

 

I know nothing about acupuncture. Like the AMA, I have no experience with it. It's a several thousand year old practice that has apparently helped several people I know and trust, so I keep an open mind about it by default. If someone like MattP recounts being helped by acupuncture, who am I (or you, or anyone) to second guess him? What kind of weird, control-freak ego needs to re-write someone else's experience?

 

Western-Big-Bidness-medicine's long, sordid history of pushing dangerous drugs with catastrophic effect certainly calls into the question the sanctity of it's opinions and findings, however 'scientifically based' they are advertised to be.

 

As in everything, buyer beware.

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil K]

Not that I've given up on ignoring FW, but...... He's pretty well proven in this thread that he believes that his own special prejudices and preconceptions define truth. Just where does he gat all that jreck, since he claims to be such an independent thinker?

 

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence, thousands of clinical trials, or volumes of physiological studies that indicate that yeah, there is something to acupuncture. Placebo effect enter into the equation? Sure, same as with allopathic medicine. Or you can, just like with oh, say- climatology find nay sayers and proclaim that they alone stand for truth, justice and the American Way. Go ahead.

 

Oh, and BTW, Joe is a lying sack.

[Peter_Puget]

Like, say; acupuncture?

 

What? Now you're bashing acupuncture?

 

I once had a beginning student (she was near the end of her first year in acupuncture school) relieve my pain from a torn elbow tendon sustained while rock climbing. I've had other less dramatic and in some cases not even noticeable results -- but over the years my acupuncture experiences have been comparable in effectiveness to my doctor visits, expensive scans, and medicines with side effects when it comes to pain issues. And the cost has been less than 1/10th as much for the same results.

 

Do you know anything about Acupuncture?

 

---

 

By the way: Joe is a liar. What did he say this time?

 

Mattp are you saying if there was no cost issue at all you would be indifferent between the treatment offered by an accupuncturist and a certain Dr. whose name i gave you?

[Off_White]

What Peter, are you saying you'd be indifferent to paying 10x as much for the same no-improvement outcome?

[Peter_Puget]

No..assuming I already knew the diagnosis. Going to an accupuncturist while a cancerous tumor was growing wouldn't be my idea of cost effective med. Going to either fora known no-improvement outcome is also a poor choice. To be clear that isn't the choice I set up for Mattp.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Peter_Puget

[jordansahls]

[Fairweather]

I know nothing about acupuncture. Like the AMA, I have no experience with it. It's a several thousand year old practice that has apparently helped several people I know and trust, so I keep an open mind about it by default. If someone like MattP recounts being helped by acupuncture, who am I (or you, or anyone) to second guess him? What kind of weird, control-freak ego needs to re-write someone else's experience?

 

 

 

 

 

Now, if only you would apply this self-professed open mindedness to, say, those who profess religious faith, or political opinions that differ from your own...

 

 

[Fairweather]

Not that I've given up on ignoring FW, but...... He's pretty well proven in this thread that he believes that his own special prejudices and preconceptions define truth. Just where does he gat all that jreck, since he claims to be such an independent thinker?

 

There is a ton of anecdotal evidence, thousands of clinical trials, or volumes of physiological studies that indicate that yeah, there is something to acupuncture. Placebo effect enter into the equation? Sure, same as with allopathic medicine. Or you can, just like with oh, say- climatology find nay sayers and proclaim that they alone stand for truth, justice and the American Way. Go ahead.

 

 

Last time I saw him my acupuncture guy hooked up wires with alligator clips to transmit energy.

 

I don't think there's much more I can add to Matt's convincing testimonial...

[tvashtarkatena]

No..assuming I already knew the diagnosis. Going to an accupuncturist while a cancerous tumor was growing wouldn't be my idea of cost effective med. Going to either fora known no-improvement outcome is also a poor choice. To be clear that isn't the choice I set up for Mattp.

 

Um...how would you know its a known no-improvement outcome beforehand? Don't outcomes, you know, come afterwards n shit?

 

Just sayin...

[tvashtarkatena]

I know nothing about acupuncture. Like the AMA, I have no experience with it. It's a several thousand year old practice that has apparently helped several people I know and trust, so I keep an open mind about it by default. If someone like MattP recounts being helped by acupuncture, who am I (or you, or anyone) to second guess him? What kind of weird, control-freak ego needs to re-write someone else's experience?

 

 

 

 

 

Now, if only you would apply this self-professed open mindedness to, say, those who profess religious faith, or political opinions that differ from your own...

 

 

I actually posted a comment about religion myself, then deleted it to see what kind of fish would bite...as if there were any mystery.

 

Just one minor difference...you can see and feel acupuncture and its effects. That and the comparative plausibility of physically manipulating neural nodes for pain relief and other benefits versus believing in a Great Big Fuzzy Kitty Way Up In The Sky Who Loves Us.

[Fairweather]

Recognizing the fatal flaw in your position doesn't render it any less flawed.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I share James Joyce's signature trait: raging inconsistency.

[mattp]

Mattp are you saying if there was no cost issue at all you would be indifferent between the treatment offered by an accupuncturist and a certain Dr. whose name i gave you?

 

Where in the world did you get that idea? You know full well as I have told you more than once that the doctor you referred me to got me on the right track and nowhere did I state that the accupuncturist was able to help with my present issues -- in fact quite the opposite: I wrote that the most recent guy I saw did some silly things and was unable to help. I've had some pretty good results with accupuncture a couple of times, though.

 

The point of my post was that I've had mixed experiences with doctors and with alternative providers. For assistance with a torn tendon recovery and a whiplash injury I actually think I was helped more by the alternative treatments - accupuncture, accupressure and even massage. For back pain I used to have a great chiropractor who could fix me right up with a single crack, as opposed to limping along for a week with pain killers and muscle relaxers and only then being able to ease back into regular activity. Sadly, Mr. Magic died 20 years ago and I've never found anybody who can do what he did since then.

 

For treatment of injuries, the steroid injections and MRI scans ordered by MD's never really did much for me and the physical therapy program I had at Group Health was a complete joke. Similarly, the first doctor I saw for my present issues -- a doctor who was highly recommended and clearly "successful" as she billed a whole bunch -- was unable to help and in fact ordered physical therapy that made things worse.

[ivan]

wait, a politician is ACTUALLY a liar?!?

[tvashtarkatena]

"I have no doubt that, once the American people understand what's in this bill..."

 

I turned the radio off after that.

 

Thanks for fucking nothing.