prole Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Damn. That guy's smarter than Tvash. How do you get into that seminar? Â Oh. Â You all losers. Get out of way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 U gonna fine a fountai i' fro'uv yo hou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 U WANNA MAKE A LOT A MONEE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I just want one of those scarfs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I just want one of those scarfs. forget the scarf... the hood ornament would go great in my collection! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 The idea, if I understand correctly, is that liberty alone will not preserve virtue in society. Â 'liberty alone'? it sounds pretty arm-wavy in a libertarian kind of way. What about education, family, sense of community, civic and republican duty, etc ... Â Rather, left to our own devices, unemcumbered by the moral constraints of religion, corruption and self-centeredness results. Â a bunch of unsupported premises if you ask me. I'd wager that in fact populations with greater proportions of atheists in the developed world such as Western and Northern Europe are more principled in terms of fairness, solidarity, and justice than religious ones such as the US and southern europe. Â Today, the State endeavors to take the place of God and they call the beliefs of the secular state a religion by another name. Â The state is the collective expression of the people (or at least should) and therefore acts on the values that are dear to them. It has nothing to do with religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 If you en masse substitute TV for parenting and either religion or reason I'm pretty sure a lot of unconstrained encumbering of the worst sort is the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehead Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I think it's misguided to attack the entire edifice of Christianity, perhaps you should single out certain denominations. Regardless of the opinions of its distractors, Christianity includes a relatively wide gamut of emphasis, for example, there is something called Liberation Theology which focuses on social justice particularly the role of poverty and inequality in society. Look also at the Episcopalian denomination for their social leanings. Â I guess I'm one of the few that sees value in the positive aspects of religion despite its faults. Â The Evolution of the God Gene--New York Times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 i think you've been the reasonable voice in this argument i've been unfortunate enough to expose myself to. Â thomas merton is another name that comes to mind, a man of considerable faith and considerable thoughtfulness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I think it's misguided to attack the entire edifice of Christianity, perhaps you should single out certain denominations. Regardless of the opinions of its distractors, Christianity includes a relatively wide gamut of emphasis, for example, there is something called Liberation Theology which focuses on social justice particularly the role of poverty and inequality in society. Look also at the Episcopalian denomination for their social leanings. Â I guess I'm one of the few that sees value in the positive aspects of religion despite its faults. Â Â I don't go out my way to attack christianity. Even though I realize it's historical significance, being atheist for most of my life I just have no use for it in my world (I also notice its overall negative influence on the society I live in). To be sure, the US progressive movement owes a lot to some denominations for their roles in many popular movements (civil rights, anti-war, ..) over the last 50 years. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 If you en masse substitute TV for parenting and either religion or reason I'm pretty sure a lot of unconstrained encumbering of the worst sort is the result. Â True. I suspect it also depends on the message and how it fits in with societal needs for progress and stability. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I'm definitely of the mind that the negatives of religion far outweigh the positives in this day and age. I also don't subscribe to any of the weak attempts at religion-driven sociobiology - i.e. God Gene / Instinct / etc. Â Humans since prehistory have recognized the survival advantages of tribal cohesion, the issue is how you continuously reinforce that cohesion and manage the resulting tribe. I would posit that the natural foundation for cohesion and tribal 'governance' has been and remains, fear. Fear is a universal human emotion that leaders can always count on in the absence of almost all others. Fear of the unknown drives cohesion, and when enough humans are involved to threaten leadership, then fear of each other (them vs. us) is invoked to separate and maintain power bases. Â Once you have multiple tribes then the notion of identity becomes critical to maintaining tribal distinctions and powerbases. What collective identity requires, though, is a rallying construct - something that can't be easily invalidated. And what better candidate than pretty much any random construct which can't be directly experienced or disproven by members of the tribe or another tribe? Declaring our tribe believes "there is a Lion God in the Sun who protects us" or "Spirit in the Oak which is evil" are as good as gold for that purpose. Hell, if the strongest or smartest or most popular among us says it's so, who's going to argue the point? Say it often enough and get enough people saying it and, presto - no one dares deny it going forward. Â That's the real utility of religion from my perspective. And morality? Yeah, you can get all altruistic about it, but you can also look at morality from a tribal leadership perspective - the more unruly the mob, the more difficult they are to manage and lead. A New York Times reporter once badgered the President of Kazakhstan about his orders revoking the right of public assembly. "What about the people's rights?!?". The President responded, "look, you don't understand. You get 4,000 Kazakhs together you aren't going to have an 'assembly', you're going to have a riot!" The point being 'morality' is less a spiritual imperative than an organizational one. Â Religion served a purpose when we were primitive and uneducated societies, that we still need such constructs, and that they still enjoy the influence they do, tells you we aren't nearly as smart as we think we are. Again, there's no more validity for god than the Tooth Fairy. And, sorry, I find it an amazingly primitive and uneducated a response to living in today's world, and one that strongly shares a responsibility for war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Thank you for that clear window into your empty mind. Are you sure you're not a right wing christian fanatic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Subjugation of women by removal of abortion rights Morality exists apart from religion. I have a few liberal friends who consider abortion morally wrong. Even murder.  eternal damnation for all non-believers, Why should you even care about this nonsense? censorship for ALL citizens I think those on the left are more guilty of this. See "fairness doctrine" and "net neutrality" for some of their latest efforts.  cover ups for massive systemic child sexual abuseFucking Catholics. They should lose their tax-exempt status for this shit. In fact, I'm not sure why any church should enjoy this status.  opposition to equal marital rights for all citizens While I agree they agitate, I'm not sure what method you would propose to silence them. They have a right to their views. attempting to inject the teaching of one specific religious doctrine into public schools. I agree that the latest "intelligent design" push is thinly veiled, but I really don't see religion as much of an influence in public schools. Absolutely zero in higher ed.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Why FW, I'm so flattered that you hang on my every word. Â Religion doesn't play a role in public schools...but it's not for lack of trying on the part of our Christian brethren. They always lose in court because organizations like the ACLU kick their asses back to their bible study classes on basic constitutional grounds. Without such watchdog organizations, many of our kids might well be studying Creationism in a 'competing theory' wrapper. Â No one has suggested silencing anyone's views, BTW; you're the only person who has mentioned it. Â To deny churches tax exempt status and grant it to other non-profits would, of course, violate both the fairness doctrine and the 1st amendment. Non-starter. Â Eternal damnation for non-believers constitutes one of the highest forms of divisive bigotry. I oppose it, but hey, it's a free country. When it comes time to craft legislation and policy, however, stow that shit. Edited November 21, 2009 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Eternal damnation? That would be you two in spray for eternity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Thank you for that clear window into your empty mind. Empty is as empty does. And better empty than filled with childish fairy tales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Eternal damnation? That would be you two in spray for eternity. Â ...for the rest of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Thank you for that clear window into your empty mind. Empty is as empty does. And better empty than filled with childish fairy tales. Your miunderstanding of the mythology is as profound as the Christian right's. So while we truely should remain wary of those who would force their religious beliefs on others, your misinformed blanket assessment of the entire genre is just as worthy of said wariness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Eternal damnation? That would be you two in spray for eternity. Â ...for the rest of you. Many of us don't read FW's and your threads anymore. They are all the same. It's like watching the seventeenth season of "As the world Churns". Seek help. Â Or insert a photo here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 But, but you just replied to...  FW and I have a special relationship  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I'm Captain Kirk, BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crux Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I'm Captain Kirk, BTW. [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 But, but you just replied to... FW and I have a special relationship And for christ's sake do something about those panty lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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