"Reaity check on Pica Peak"

[tazz]

Two friends of mine had a rockfall accident this past weekend. I climbed the Molar Tooth with them last month. These two are amazing wonderful people and very seasoned climbers. I am so glad they are ok!! Just goes to show even on 4th and low 5th things can happen and you can get screwed!

 

Reality Check on Pica peak

[mountainsloth]

yikes! glad they are ok. They are right about simulclimbing. i don't even think about simulclimbing on anything but well traveled, easy routes and even then i know i am taking a chance. i came very close to sending large chunks of granite down on my partner simuling while off route on serpentine arete. i was petrified!

[Off_White]

Thanks for the link Tazz. I think one of John Long's current mantras is "Anyone can fall anytime anywhere." I think he's come about 180 degrees from the days of his youth as an immortal. I'm glad your friends are alright, reminds me of the accident on N Face of Terror this summer, which also worked out amazingly well considering the potential this sort of thing has.

[Pete_H]

Climbing is dangerous.

[YocumRidge]

Thanks for posting Tazz.

Very illustrative on a bona fide belay. Totally agree.

Glad your friends are OK

[YocumRidge]

reminds me of the accident on N Face of Terror this summer, which also worked out amazingly well considering the potential this sort of thing has.

 

It crossed my mind too. Did those guys simul-climb when the accident happened?

[tazz]

yes they were simul-climbing on terror. Not that they were wrong at all. they are ALL seasoned good climbers and shit can happen. It would be good to hear stephs thoughts on simul-climbing now. I don't want to make her pitch in here as i can understand the horror she went through and would not want to discuss it anymore. Totally understandable.

 

No matter ....

 

I hear and see soooo many folks in a hurry so they simul-climb. Even in simul-climbing you are somewhat protected with "GOOD" pro but your fall is much more violent and your partner is also subject to injury as they get jerked up. Right?

 

I am one who is more careful due to the fact i have a kid. I like belays. I need to minimize the risk. Even then you are not totally immune to what the hills throw at us. You NEVER know!! NEVER!!! you can be as cocky and the BEST climber out there but if the mountains want you off they will give it to ya!

 

I was close...like hours to maybe joining them on this trip but my plans came through for Tower and Golden Horn first. A third may have changed the scenario. thank goodness i was not there!!

 

It would be interesting to hear the opinions from folks more on this. Many of you simul-climb for speed. Is it worth it? How many folks have had issues with falls on simul climbing on easy rock?

 

oh and this is not a thread to bash the climbers in the accident or anyone's comments. So don't even think about it... !!! please, that is not what this is about. I am just wanting to open an adult conversation so i and others can learn more. I learn nothing and tune out with spray.

 

please discuss so i and others can learn. I value the opinions of the good non-sprayers here

 

 

thanks in advance.

[Pete_H]

Many of you simul-climb for speed. Is it worth it?

 

Yes.

[lancegranite]

My second accidently slipped simulclimbing and I held her fall.

 

 

[fas]

I think that one needs to define what they mean by "simul-climbing".

 

I have never considered traveling together with coils or on a shortened rope over Class 3 or 4 terrain as simul-climbing. Rather just as an expedient way to avoid taking the rope off and having to tie in again when further difficulties are encountered.

 

Seems to me that the current meaning of simul-climbing is moving together over Class 5 terrain and placing intermediate protection, but not belaying.

 

Am I correct?

 

In either case, I have always believed that if I feel the need to place protection, I am admitting to myself that there is a chance that I could fall. If there is a chance that I could fall, I want a belay. My policy has always been and will remain that if the leader is placing protection, there is an old fashioned, stationary, protected belay.

 

[tazz]

Many of you simul-climb for speed. Is it worth it?

 

Yes.

 

hah!! that's all ya got or its it sooo short cause you don't know how to answer a legit question without spraying?

ok let me rephrase that for ya. Is it worth the "RISK"? I now it is worth it for speed.

 

yes fas this is talking about C4 and low C5. With pro placed in between to two or how ever many folks.

 

lancegranite, I think that is different than a lead taking the fall on C5. what was the fall like for you? plus if you are 200# and she is 120# wouldn't that make a huge difference especially if she is a second? would have been totally different if it was you who fell.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2009 by tazz

[NoahT]

"Is it worth the "RISK?"

 

No.

 

But there isn't anything about climbing that IS worth the real, ultimate risk we expose ourselves to when we go out. Unfortunately, we tend to see this in flashes of brilliance only after bad fortune has caught up with us, or our friends.

 

And oh, how quickly we forget!

 

I also think there's an aura of sexiness around "fast and light" climbing, when it obviously doesn't fit for certain situations or climbers. When it actually mitigates some of the risk for a certain objective, there's inherent value. But when it's employed just for fun, or for the sake of work schedules, etc., it should be recognized for what it is. Just an option, one of many, that puts you a little closer to the edge. The choice to simul- may fall into this category.

[lancegranite]

I'm not trying to spray at all.

The slip happened on a Red rocks trade route of moderate difficutly.

I weigh 150 and my partner weighed maybe 120?

She stopped climbing, I held on and she fell off.

 

 

[tazz]

i was talking to Pete H. about spraying and i was joking with him.

 

 

I know you were not spraying ..at all.

 

wow, on red rocks. Would you have had the same results if say your hands were not holding onto the rock at that very moment.

 

so when you say moderate you mean low class 5? I know a stupid question but I am learning here. Moderate can be a wide swath to different folks. Or is there a certain rating to rating it is describing? BTW glad you caught her and all went well.

 

Noah... great post. thanks!

Edited October 4, 2009 by tazz

[mattp]

I agree with the post above noting that "fast and light" has become stylish and speed climbing is not always necessary or even a good idea but on most mountain rock routes over grade III you are going to have to do some simulclimbing or simply "moving together" or you will end up overnighting it.

[kroc]

Another point to remember is that in some other mountain ranges the bad weather tends to come in faster than in the cascades, with more electrical activity. Not always safe to use 15+ hours to get up a route. I think the general idea is to treat simul-climbing as a solo with a slight chance of survival. You can also try to anticipate short difficulties to try and get a normal belay in. Sometimes you have to cover a lot of vertical and that's why a big route can be more serious that it's hardest technical rating may suggest.

Edited October 5, 2009 by kroc

[chirp]

Grats on making it through, that does sound ugly

[Pete_H]

Many of you simul-climb for speed. Is it worth it?

 

Yes.

 

hah!! that's all ya got or its it sooo short cause you don't know how to answer a legit question without spraying?

ok let me rephrase that for ya. Is it worth the "RISK"? I now it is worth it for speed.

 

 

Risk is subjective. Safety is subjective. What is safe for you may not be safe for someone else, and vice-versa. Whether a rope team chooses to employ the tactic of simul-climbing is a subjective decision involving many factors, including personality, the situation, and skill level.

 

Climbing is inherently dangerous, why draw an arbitrary line declaring that leading with a rope is safe and simulclimbing inherently is not? Clearly, many pitches climbed with a belay were more dangerous than other pitches or even the same pitches climbed in simul-climb style, or even as a free solo by other parties.

 

Therefore, your question is inherently not legitimate.

 

[Buckaroo]

""Is it worth the "RISK"? I now it is worth it for speed.""

 

depends on the climb. Sometimes it's safer to be faster, like when climbing under an ice cliff. If you pitch it out maybe that slows you down to where you need bivy gear. So the extra weight slows you down even more.

 

There's also a little piece called a Wild Country Ropeman. A mini ascender placed on key pieces that keeps the follower from pulling off the leader, Colin uses these.

 

[tazz]

Therefore, your question is inherently not legitimate.

 

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Buckaroo...thanks for that tip. I am gonna check it out!

 

I am learning and enjoying the thoughts, opinions and input folks.

[Pete_H]

Your question is not legitimate because it assumes that simul-climbing is always more dangerous than pitched-out climbing, which it isn't. The repercussions for a fall may be more serious, but that is different.

 

In addition, as I stated earlier any answer given is completely subjective. It is like asking whether Peter Croft soloing the Rostrum is worth the risk. Obviously it was for him at the time, just as rock climbing in general is for you. I don't see an issue worth discussion.

[chucK]

I think simuling is worth it, if you're not fooling yourself about what it brings you, and treat it accordingly. I treat simulclimbing like fas mentioned above, like coiling the rope and moving together. Though his/her distinction of 3rd or 4th class is arbitrary. The grade/comfort level is determined by the abilities of the team.

 

Basically, when simuling I consider myself soloing, but worse. When I'm seconding I'm more scared/careful than if I were soloing, as I've got another life in the mix, AND that person could get really badly hurt or dead if I just tumble a few feet at an unexposed spot.

 

Where simuling can really help is when you get to a spot that either person would not solo. Then they call out, and you get yourself into standard belay mode for a few moves. Since you've got the rope on already (and a few pieces in) this can be done relatively quickly and efficiently.

 

So anyway, putting it that way I see no more danger in simuling than any other mountain climbing or scrambling. On some mountains it's just part of the game. You're gonna simul so you can get up it in less than three days, or you're just not going to do it. It's like the decision you make when driving to any recreational activity. If you had some compunction that required you to drive 25 mph the whole way (because that'd be much safer) then there's a few things you'd just cross off your list.

[Choada_Boy]

You know what's really dangerous? Life! 100% fatal! Yet people want to quibble about who, how, and when you should make an already dangerous activity more or less dangerous, and cop an attitude in the process, as if they've cornered the market on making climbing safe. Simul if you want. Don't if you don't. But don't get all preachy about it, especially you safety freaks, as if there's a right way to climb, or any of it matters. You could just as easily get the chop when the guy driving towards you on the highway has a heart attack and smashes into you head on. Game over. Did you have fun?

[chucK]

But if you drove 25mph everywhere you'd have a little better chance of avoiding that highway heart attack guy. Better yet, just don't drive on the highway. You can get almost anywhere you want using regular city streets.

[Choada_Boy]

I walk everywhere I go. Safer that way.