Sherri Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I've noticed that folks selling used cams(and those buying them)make a point of disclosing whether or not the gear has taken a fall. This practice seems to imply that a fall-free cam is better than a fallen-on cam, but is there a technical basis to this assumption? If the cam is not visibly damaged during the fall(ie-chipped lobes, bent wires, etc), does simply catching a fall make the cam weaker somehow? I've never seen cams rated for # of falls like ropes are. I fall on my gear all the time( ), is it time to retire the rack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Cams become weaker after about 30,000,000 fall cycles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Cams become weaker after about 30,000,000 fall cycles. I think I'll have G-M wired before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstach Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 The nylon sling part of the cam will wear and age just like nylon rope. It should be replaced periodically. I am sure you can get some recommendations here for companies that provide that service in your local area...where aboot do you live? Also, cams that have been dropped are suspect even if they do not have visible damage (micro-fractures) - same as a carabiner or belay device would. Falls I wouldn't worry too much about unless the lobes or stem has visible damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 actually, the grade of aluminum in the cams is not really subject to microfracture despite common belief. Steel is though, so if the axle received the impact that would be a concern...likely the cam lobes would take the hit first. Has anyone actually ever seen a "fractured" cam lobe? NO...you actually see a squashing/yielding type failure, or a bending failure in the large lobes first. carry on... oh, and mark is pretty much right. Although you can gank wires from falling over a horizontal placement. Also, I would much RATHER have a fallen/lobbed on Alien than a *new* one for obvious quality control issues...actually fuck aliens, i'll take master cams! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmace Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 My purple Metoloius, 0, took one fall to destroy it and it wasnt very big maybe 15 feet. I wouldnt lend my cams out for someone to fall on repeatedly so I probably woudnt buy one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 A 15 footer on a purple Metolious sounds pretty big to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Has anyone actually ever seen a "fractured" cam lobe? NO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Has anyone actually ever seen a "fractured" cam lobe? NO... Here is another broken cam. Notice that they are both OP (?). My example is one I saw fall from high on the Stovelegs. I have never heard a verifiable story about a "standard" cam like a BD, Metolious, or Wild Country failing in any way except when poorly placed like in a horizontal. Edited October 2, 2009 by MarkMcJizzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 actually, the grade of aluminum in the cams is not really subject to microfracture despite common belief. Steel is though, so if the axle received the impact that would be a concern...likely the cam lobes would take the hit first. Has anyone actually ever seen a "fractured" cam lobe? NO...you actually see a squashing/yielding type failure, or a bending failure in the large lobes first. carry on... oh, and mark is pretty much right. Although you can gank wires from falling over a horizontal placement. Also, I would much RATHER have a fallen/lobbed on Alien than a *new* one for obvious quality control issues...actually fuck aliens, i'll take master cams! Thanks Rudy for the professional answer, I hope that clears thing up for people who like to run aroung screaming "micro fracture! microfracture!". It really doesn't happen. Should you use a carabiner dropped off El Cap? No. Can you use a WC cam dropped off El Cap? I wouldn't now, but I'm sure I had cams I found at the base of El Cap, that I used for years, back in my twenties. Should you use Aliens fresh from the factory? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I've broken two cams in falls over the years. No pics though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 No pics, but there must be a story. Straight forward placement, and straight forward fall, or huge contributing factors? What failed, the cam, or the placements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Thanks for the input. With all the references to cams not being fallen on coming up in the yard sale posts, it just got me wondering why this info should matter to the buyer if the cam looks as good as any other used cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 First one was one of Andy Cairns old cams: solid shafted #2 or 2.5 Friend placed at an angle in a pod on Eagles Domain. Fell (20 footer) out of wet crack onto friend, which rotated out of crack & turned 20 foot fall into 50-plus foot fall. Afterwards examination showed one side of cam had broken trigger wires & possibly internal springs at point where wires connect to cams; on that side of the unit the cams were then free to move allowing cam to rotate around them when placed. Not sure after the fact if this was the bottom or top side in the placement, suspect it was the bottom. second time was when climbing Ultimate Everything before the FA when it was still a project. Had a yellow older TCU, again at an angle, in a pod excavated from dirt in a muddy crack. fell off, weighted TCU. seemed to hold and lowered on it but when i was about three or four feet off the ground it ripped. examination showed TCU, that was of the type with inserted (aluminum dowel) cam stops rather than machined cam stops, had the cam stops on one side completely deformed and bent out of line, allowing cams to completely rotate around axle. sent that one back to Metolius and they gave $15 discount on new cam as they claimed it was too old to warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Neither sounds like the cam failed. It sounds like poor placements which resulted in the cam pulling, and sustaining damage due to the poor placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Monster falls on many cams. No wear and tear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 dunno know'bout falls, but aid climbing sure mangles the shit out of everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Have seen the old style TCU's bend over backwards from poor placement. Have seen a Camalot axle bend when dropped off the Nose. Don't think modern cams are going to micro-fracture from being dropped unless they get bent. But if they bend any at all they should be retired. (not counting cable stems) The broken cams in the pics are Omega Pacific, they already have a history of breaking but shouldn't be compared to the other major manufactures as they are an inherently weak design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 The broken cams in the pics are Omega Pacific, they already have a history of breaking but shouldn't be compared to the other major manufactures as they are an inherently weak design. ... I'm actually really surprized at the number of climbers that i run into who actually love those things There are so many moving parts - more so than most other cams - and this is the main weakness in cams, in general. The more moving parts you have the more possible fail points. I know climbers with doubles of all of them and they swear by them! panic pieces at best... otherwise ----> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 The broken cams in the pics are Omega Pacific, they already have a history of breaking but shouldn't be compared to the other major manufactures as they are an inherently weak design. ... I'm actually really surprized at the number of climbers that i run into who actually love those things There are so many moving parts - more so than most other cams - and this is the main weakness in cams, in general. The more moving parts you have the more possible fail points. I know climbers with doubles of all of them and they swear by them! panic pieces at best... otherwise ----> When placed properly, link cams are plenty strong. As Dru has demonstrated, any brand cam placed in the back of a pod not in the direction of the fall can fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 I own one yellow linkcam and love it. However, it is usually the last piece I place; I place my BD's of the .75-#2 size range first and keep it as a spare "double" for those three sizes if I need one later on the pitch, or to build an anchor, especially since I don't know what gear I'll need there. It's an excellent asset to my rack in this respect. My linkcam has caught a couple decent falls without any damage(to me or the linkcam). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 The broken cams in the pics are Omega Pacific, they already have a history of breaking but shouldn't be compared to the other major manufactures as they are an inherently weak design. ... I'm actually really surprized at the number of climbers that i run into who actually love those things There are so many moving parts - more so than most other cams - and this is the main weakness in cams, in general. The more moving parts you have the more possible fail points. I know climbers with doubles of all of them and they swear by them! panic pieces at best... otherwise ----> When placed properly, link cams are plenty strong. As Dru has demonstrated, any brand cam placed in the back of a pod not in the direction of the fall can fail. YES, any cam not placed properly can fail - link cams and camalots alike. All else aside they are still not something I'd give up my camalots for, IMO. Too many moving parts, heavy... meh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I own one yellow linkcam and love it. However, it is usually the last piece I place; I place my BD's of the .75-#2 size range first and keep it as a spare "double" for those three sizes if I need one later on the pitch, or to build an anchor, especially since I don't know what gear I'll need there. It's an excellent asset to my rack in this respect. My linkcam has caught a couple decent falls without any damage(to me or the linkcam). I'll second Sherri's thoughts. The linkcam's are a great tool, but they're certainly not my "go to" piece. For me it's always nuts, hexes, DMM/Metolius Cam's, then Link Cams. They're great for anchors, and great to have 1 on your rack as that 2nd/ or 3rd piece in a range of sizes, but I'd never build a full rack out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 For me it's always nuts, hexes, DMM/Metolius Cam's, then Link Cams. OMG, I heart hexes and my DMM offsets, too. I knew I liked you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Neither sounds like the cam failed. It sounds like poor placements which resulted in the cam pulling, and sustaining damage due to the poor placement. whatever bitch. not the best placement but the cams failed and then pulled in both cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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