Sport vs Trad

[RuMR]

Nor do you fully understand my position on bolts (the short version: they should be rarely used.)

 

This is a radically different position than I have thought you earlier exposed. I had thought you had earlier postulated a NO BOLT philosophy. My apologies, I obviously misread something.

 

May I also add: those who attack your profession do so because they are not able to intellectually formulate a valid argument against your bolt position so they attack you personally instead: in lieu of an actual discussion on the subject. This only shows that they either have weak ideas or weak minds.

 

I will admit to you that I found Ivans point interesting and humorous, i.e. that you spend your life/vocation unearthing, preserving, cataloging (and glorifying?) some of the largest scale destruction and manipulation of rock by humans ever seen on this earth. Big respect for what you do for a living from me. I'm not attacking you at all over it, but you have to admit that the comparison of your attacks on bolting, which as you can see from my earlier pictures of the Apron bolt replacement project, the bolts cannot be seen except from close up and often you can't even see the next one from the one you just clipped: vs some of the Egyptian "royal works" projects visible from the next planetary object over -is a stark and interesting contrast?

 

Have you ever considered or reflected on this contrasting thought Don?

 

Regards to all:

 

 

For myself, there are places where bolted lines are not appropriate at all. And many of those areas have taken steps to control it. However, places like El potrero chico have no cracks and great cliffs and great climbing. For myself, I'm glad there are routes there and places like that. I find it interesting that uber clean/ethical guys like Kurt Smith, who showed up at Smith in the 80s and did a ground up FA of a 5.12 to slap the locals in the face over their thoughts on rap bolting, recognized this and later did many rap bolted lines at El Potrero.

 

 

 

You can't even see the bolts unless you take a close up shot. I don't understand the horror over having routes here myself.

not to belabor a point, when kurt showed up and he didn't exactly slap the locals in the face, and his ground up ascent of a "5.12" was really two mid range, chossy 5.11's called suicidal tendoncies and touch...he pretty much got beat up...

 

secondly, i wouldn't exactly call Rifle a trad climber's paradise and he was one of the principle developers there...

Edited August 6, 2009 by RuMR

[Peter_Puget]

Feck -

 

Index aint no "Trad" area whatever that means. Index has it all it's a universal area.

 

Castle Rock ground up? Don't tell a bunch of routes on Lower Castle which were sure scrubbed. Don't include No Free Lunge or any of several other routes which were TR'd by the FA party before the leads were reported as FAs.

 

Joseph-

 

Is your reply to Rumr serious?

 

[Peter_Puget]

Runr -

I was thinking the same thing. Plus I climbed one of those routes and it really wasn't very good at all. Bill has lost touch with reality.

 

 

[phillygoat]

I find it interesting that uber clean/ethical guys like Kurt Smith, who showed up at Smith in the 80s and did a ground up FA of a 5.12 to slap the locals in the face over their thoughts on rap bolting, recognized this and later did many rap bolted lines at El Potrero.

 

Suicidal Tendencies 5.11d "This crumbly face route rises just right of a right-leaning flake. Established from the ground up, the climb never received the cleaning it so desperately needed. Many holds used on the first ascent now litter the base." Alan Watts

 

At Clear Creek Canyon, "uber clean/ethical" Kurt also "drilled into the black granite of what would soon be Public Enemy, bolted a couple of artificial holds on the upper section, and then sent at 5.13+. Says Smith, '[Chipping] was becoming the norm with some areas. I just wanted to climb that nice, steep wall.'"

 

BTW, I agree with ya Bill- just having some fun knocking these exalted "trad" guys off their pedestals.

[Kimmo]

good work people, keep it up. i'm off to put in a couple of bolts and hopefully finally nail the exit moves at the top of my route. wish me luck!

[Bug]

So many of you hold Dawg responsible for the ideas he supports. He is just one of many, and almost certainly not the first, to hold those beleifs. Same goes for the attacks of his profession which were cheap sidetracks for lack of wits as Bill pointed out.

And the repeated attacks against me for "being for labels of sport or trad" or "against bolting", both of which are bullshit.

 

I think there was some great discussion here even though Porter was too spineless to keep it in the forum it belonged in.

 

The discussion will come back.

You cannot expect to keep bolting and have no one else care.

At some point we will have too many grid bolted walls and too many permanent bolts in national parks.

It will affect ALL climbers.

 

But hide out for now.

Bury your head in the sand and pretend you can do this forever.

Call us names for wanting to discuss it. Revel in the youthful extemes you pursue.

It will pass.

[StevenSeagal]

good work people, keep it up. i'm off to put in a couple of bolts and hopefully finally nail the exit moves at the top of my route. wish me luck!

 

cool, be sure to leave your draws up so I can send after you're finished. Also leave the boom box cranking to keep that extra good vibeage going for me, bro-ham!

[rob]

So many of you hold Dawg responsible for the ideas he supports. He is just one of many, and almost certainly not the first, to hold those beleifs. Same goes for the attacks of his profession which were cheap sidetracks for lack of wits as Bill pointed out.

And the repeated attacks against me for "being for labels of sport or trad" or "against bolting", both of which are bullshit.

 

I think there was some great discussion here even though Porter was too spineless to keep it in the forum it belonged in.

 

The discussion will come back.

You cannot expect to keep bolting and have no one else care.

At some point we will have too many grid bolted walls and too many permanent bolts in national parks.

It will affect ALL climbers.

 

But hide out for now.

Bury your head in the sand and pretend you can do this forever.

Call us names for wanting to discuss it. Revel in the youthful extemes you pursue.

It will pass.

 

 

are you menstruating?

 

[rob]

I'm kidding. this is obviously a very serious conversation, befitting of the highest drama.

[rob]

I esp. loved each sentence on a separate line, for dramatic effect. Was that to mimic the pauses between phrases? I could almost image the lights dimming as the camera came in for the closeup.

 

Fade to black...and SCENE!

[olyclimber]

not having a spine is really killing my back right now

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I esp. loved each sentence on a separate line, for dramatic effect. Was that to mimic the pauses between phrases? I could almost image the lights dimming as the camera came in for the closeup.

 

Fade to black...and SCENE!

 

that was my reaction as well, Rob

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sport climbing is my least favorite mode- I prefer alpine and trad-but my experience with it is an improvement of strength, agility, technique, and sometimes it's just a fun and unstressful day out on nice steep rock.

 

that about sums up my preferences

[KaskadskyjKozak]

not having a spine is really killing my back right now

 

Porter, we reall need this thread in a 'serious' forumn. It's just what cc.com needs to attract more climbers to the web site and not turn folks off. So many newbs tell me that they don't participate in this site because there are too many assholes who will flame you if you post, and are turned off by all the name calling. I am mystified why it got moved to Spray.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I already suggested a libtard forum but that got rejected.

[tomtom]

"Acts" is:

1) not one of the synoptic Gospels, and

2) not one of the Gospels.

 

So....go on-line and get your GED before spewing out your Biblical ignorance and spouting out big-boy words like "synoptic".

 

1) The GED is not available online.

2) The GED doesn't cover the Bible.

 

 

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

Doesn't matter though because I think we're all close to reaching an agreement here! This has been very therapeutic.

[ivan]

I already suggested a libtard forum but that got rejected.

the font should automatically be 10 pt italicized garamond

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Doesn't matter though because I think we're all close to reaching an agreement here! This has been very therapeutic.

 

yes, we definitely need more of these kinds of dialog

[JosephH]

Still haven't heard anyone venture a guess of how many new bolts go in each year in WA, the NW, and in the US as a whole.

 

103 in WA, 387 in the NW, and 4,753 in the US (last year's numbers).

 

That's one guess. My guess for 2008 would be more like: 450 OR, 800 NW, 11-13000 US

[JosephH]

Joseph - Is your reply to Rumr serious?

Yep.

[Raindawg]

I will admit to you that I found Ivans point interesting and humorous, i.e. that you spend your life/vocation unearthing, preserving, cataloging (and glorifying?) some of the largest scale destruction and manipulation of rock by humans ever seen on this earth. Big respect for what you do for a living from me. I'm not attacking you at all over it, but you have to admit that the comparison of your attacks on bolting, which as you can see from my earlier pictures of the Apron bolt replacement project, the bolts cannot be seen except from close up and often you can't even see the next one from the one you just clipped: vs some of the Egyptian "royal works" projects visible from the next planetary object over -is a stark and interesting contrast?

 

Have you ever considered or reflected on this contrasting thought Don?

 

"Ivan" doesn't have a clue and I found his comments to be nothing more than another personal attack as my profession is not the issue here. But to answer your question, I make no connection between my archaeological work and modern climbing other than I use climbing techniques when I am involved in exploration. [Also, my involvement in climbing inspired me to write a scholarly study on ancient Egyptian rope-making e.g., how the stuff was made and out of what, etc.]

 

I am not interested in "glorifying" the ancient Egyptians. They were very interesting and I enjoy uncovering their "mysteries", but I'm pretty sure ancient Egypt is a place where I wouldn't want to live 3000 years ago. I have no interest in apologizing for or promoting their past activities. They did what they did and are part of human history and some of their interesting cultural debris is worth saving and conserving as part of that history.

 

Again...I don't make a connection. My climbing views are based on how we, as individuals TODAY, choose to impact our environment. You seem to think it's a matter of visual scale, that a bolt is miniscule when compared to, say, the Great Wall of China. To me, scale is not the issue...as I just said, it's how we choose to impact the environment, and for me, I see a minimal impact/clean climbing ethic as the best way to address the outdoors. "Pack it in, pack it out". Place your gear, strive to take it back home with you. Leave it clean for the next guy. Bolts therefore should be rare (and safe). I don't want to see your pile of granola bar wrappers at the base of the wall and I don't want to deal with your closely-spaced metallic garbage, especially on crags that can be readily top-roped. And better yet, maybe some folks will learn to develop the discipline to just leave a crag alone rather than sport-bolt it.

You like to mention the Apron at Yosemite...I've never climbed on it but from what I understand, the bolts are generally widely spread which makes for both challenging climbing and lesser impact.

 

And then there are some who try to smokescreen the issue by taking note of the impact of highway projects and ski areas. You can fight The Man on that if you want but there is one thing you can control, and that is YOUR OWN conduct and impact...and that includes the ethical choice as to whether to permanently alter the environment, at whatever scale.

 

I find it interesting that uber clean/ethical guys like Kurt Smith, who showed up at Smith in the 80s and did a ground up FA of a 5.12 to slap the locals in the face over their thoughts on rap bolting, recognized this and later did many rap bolted lines at El Potrero.

 

Sell-out.

 

[StevenSeagal]

Still haven't heard anyone venture a guess of how many new bolts go in each year in WA, the NW, and in the US as a whole.

 

103 in WA, 387 in the NW, and 4,753 in the US (last year's numbers).

 

That's one guess. My guess for 2008 would be more like: 450 OR, 800 NW, 11-13000 US

 

oh shit we forgot about JH.

Hey Joe, we're cool, right? Bolts are good and hanging on gear is the purest method, right?

 

Cool!!!

[JosephH]

1) The GED is not available online.

2) The GED doesn't cover the Bible.

 

Well, on an entirely different topic: the bible doesn't cover a GED.

[prole]

So many newbs tell me that they don't participate in this site because there are too many assholes who will flame you if you post...

 

Mmmm, pillow talk...