Sport vs Trad

[JosephH]

I'm pretty much an alpine climber, so the whole bolt thing just isn't my battle.

Like I said, what if all the alpine classics had fixed lines?

[pigchampion]

i've never put a route up before but i always thought that climbing molded me and not the other way around, i'm surprised i haven't read about you in national geographic magazine or something of the like. you should write a autobiography and call it "Your Ok.... But Im Better".

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm pretty much an alpine climber, so the whole bolt thing just isn't my battle.

Like I said, what if all the alpine classics had fixed lines?

 

Fixed lines in the mountains would just mean more free ropes for booty hounds like me.

 

The nice thing about the mountains is that most of them require a stiff approach. It's an effective filter. Extra ropes and rotohammers usually don't make it into the pack.

 

I can understand the feelings about overbolting in cragging areas...from a distance. I just don't share them. If I see a bolt next to a trad route, I either clip it or not, depending on how I feel that day. My humanity doesn't depend on such things.

 

Plus, I suck so I need all the pro I can get.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

i've never put a route up before but i always thought that climbing molded me and not the other way around, i'm surprised i haven't read about you in national geographic magazine or something of the like. you should write a autobiography and call it "Your Ok.... But Im Better".

 

[JosephH]

i've never put a route up before but i always thought that climbing molded me and not the other way around, i'm surprised i haven't read about you in national geographic magazine or something of the like. you should write a autobiography and call it "Your Ok.... But Im Better".

My climbs are me, but I am not my climbs.

[tvashtarkatena]

Perhaps an Andy Goldsworthy perspective sheds some light here. Your climbs may be you while you're putting them up...but they become everyone else's afterwards.

[pigchampion]

...make a mold of yourself, put it at the base of your climbs and if people don't fit the mold they'll know not to persist in the climbing community.

No need. My climbs are a mold of myself; if people don't fit that mold they probably they probably won't like or climb my routes.

 

 

sounds like mt. rushmore.

[JosephH]

Perhaps an Andy Goldsworthy perspective sheds some light here. Your climbs may be you while you're putting them up...but they become everyone else's afterwards.

Love Goldsworthy, but no, they're not - they are only 'owned' by those who end up interested and willing enough to attempt to climb them.

[JosephH]

...sounds like mt. rushmore.

Well, it least it gets climbed (Edit: more often than my climbs...).

[tvashtarkatena]

Perhaps an Andy Goldsworthy perspective sheds some light here. Your climbs may be you while you're putting them up...but they become everyone else's afterwards.

Love Goldsworthy, but no, they're not - they are only 'owned' by those who end up interested and willing enough to attempt to climb them.

 

Well, that's what I meant...just as Goldsworthy's ephemeral work is given over to a particular stream, beach, or change of season. With his work, as with yours, place and form is everything. Yours may be more durable, but it still leaves your control once it's finished to possibly become something else.

Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Whatever that means.

 

Sounded pert gud, anyhoo.

[Bug]

...make a mold of yourself, put it at the base of your climbs and if people don't fit the mold they'll know not to persist in the climbing community.

 

I had a mold made once a long time ago.

But it broke the last time I tried to fit into it.

[Ponderosa]

ergo: moulds produce mold.

[PhöQ]

Thank goodness for chef Boiardi.

[Raindawg]

Thank goodness for chef Boiardi.

 

It's Chef Boyardee

 

Never....ever.....disrespect "The Chef"!!!!!!

 

 

The Master himself:

 

 

 

[olyclimber]

you gais must be pretty happy with this vanity thread! surely all this publicity has furthered your cause!

[Ponderosa]

fraught with Spaghetti-O logic

[Raindawg]

...and went climbing in no small part to escape the mindless suburban horde; in our wildest dreams it never would have occured to us to invite them all climbing, or to create vertical environments where bimbos can be entertained. We liked it very much that the hordes didn't climb.

 

There's an expansive industry that feeds it all. The gyms serve as nurseries for the dumbed-down version of "climbing" known as "sport"...large numbers of shoes, harnesses and belay devices are required and sold....and from there, many are introduced to the "rock", where they can apply their SPECIAL NEW SKILLS with the addition of a new rope and a fistfull of quickdraws.

(How many are taught ethics in the process??? Probably few if any. How many of them realize that there is a controversy surrounding bolts? Probably few if any.)

But the manufacturers love it....the more folks they can persuade to sell-out to the clipping-fields where the learning curve is fast, the rules are slack and the satisfaction is cheap....then the more $$$$ comes your way, a few ($$$) of which can be sent to such organizations as Leave No Trace as a conscience-soothing testament to their "green" aspirations while they promote climbing for the masses on closely-spaced artificial safety-trails. Yee-ha!!!

 

WWGD?

 

 

[Ponderosa]

 

All should feel adequately Rebuff(at)ed.

[RuMR]

...and went climbing in no small part to escape the mindless suburban horde; in our wildest dreams it never would have occured to us to invite them all climbing, or to create vertical environments where bimbos can be entertained. We liked it very much that the hordes didn't climb.

 

There's an expansive industry that feeds it all. The gyms serve as nurseries for the dumbed-down version of "climbing" known as "sport"...large numbers of shoes, harnesses and belay devices are required and sold....and from there, many are introduced to the "rock", where they can apply their SPECIAL NEW SKILLS with the addition of a new rope and a fistfull of quickdraws.

(How many are taught ethics in the process??? Probably few if any. How many of them realize that there is a controversy surrounding bolts? Probably few if any.)

But the manufacturers love it....the more folks they can persuade to sell-out to the clipping-fields where the learning curve is fast, the rules are slack and the satisfaction is cheap....then the more $$$$ comes your way, a few ($$$) of which can be sent to such organizations as Leave No Trace as a conscience-soothing testament to their "green" aspirations while they promote climbing for the masses on closely-spaced artificial safety-trails. Yee-ha!!!

 

WWGD?

 

you're a dumbshit...BD and Metolius make waaaaaay more $$$ on trad gear than quickdraws...well, there goes that argument...

[kevbone]

 

(How many are taught ethics in the process???

 

You mean taught YOUR ethics?

[billcoe]

I think Don has something with that. Gyms and gear shops make money by bringing in customers. However, why he can make a trail to the base of his climb as he stomps on the vegetation and kill all the lichen up a cliff with his passage and smugly think that his is a valid form of ascent but what others do in clipping bolts is not valid climbing is what many of us disagree with.

 

They both are climbing.

[catbirdseat]

The question is what can you and what should you do about it? About all you can do is educate people on ethics. You can go on and on here on cc.com, but most of those sport climbers don't read this stuff. Most are unlikely to take kindly to the "message" as it seem pretty darn unfriendly.

[phillygoat]

Raindawg citing Leave No Trace is just like countless, fundamentalist nutjobs citing their bibles, korans, etc.

 

The source is flawed and, therefore, irrelevant.

[tvashtarkatena]

The Anti-Climbing Gym Movement. Sounds like that one's gonna take off pretty shortly.

 

If this board is any indication, there is no real evidence that climbing gyms have anything to do with bolting ethics. Most of the bolters on this board were drilling long before climbing gyms were invented, which was, after all, pretty recent. Gyms are a completely separate environment...there is not bolting involved at all. They simply simulate the crag for the purpose of training. Nothing wrong with training in my book.

 

Then there's the 'big business' conspiracy thing. Um...would you rather that climbing equipment companies lose money and go out of business? Personally, I'd rather Petzl, BD and other faves stay in business and keep offering good gear at very reasonable prices (buy a ski boat and then come back and tell us our sport is expensive). These companies aren't sounding some ultra-high frequency whistle which turns hordes of Prana clad yuppies into consumption zombies...most people buy the gear because, are you sitting down for this? they like the sport. And the irony of Don's latest round of idiocy? Gym climbing requires the least amount of gear of any aspect of our sport. Finally, outdoor companies make the lion's share of their profit on clothing, much of it sported by non-climbers, not gear. Somewhere, right now, in downtown Seattle, an latte sucking, non-climbing tax attorney is sporting a $400 Arcteryx jacket. The injustice! Go get 'em, Don!

 

Gyms have hugely raised the bar for rock climbing: producing a new generation (with some older fuckers in the mix) of very talented climbers. Not hard to figure out why: climbing 4 times a week probably gets you in better shape than climbing 1.

 

In addition, gyms are green. Drive to the crag, or drive down the street? Even a savant like Don can figure that one out.

 

Gyms are also great resource for kids who often can't travel to crags like older folks. Keeps those kids off drugs...um, sort of.

 

And finally, Fred climbs in a gym. So would Gaston, sweaters and all, I'd wager, had they been available during his time.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena