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Retrosaurus

Dan's Dreadful Direct restored

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I think the choppers command some respect for their bold actions of restoring something to it's natural state (or as close as possible to it). I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if they saw someone pick up litter on the trail or wash paint off a rock from a graffiti "artist". Our natural resources need to be TREATED WITH RESPECT, NOT CONQUERED. Here we are talking about permanent damage that they tried to repair. Is this not honorable? Should they not take pride in what they did? Not that bragging is in order, but so far I haven't gotten that impression from any of their posts.

And their courage to stand up and take credit for what they did (while revealing their identities too) I think takes more guts than any route that you could climb.

It sound as though the bolters have been made aware of this discussion but have not gotten involved, nor given valid reasons for their actions (I don't believe there are any besides), nor even revealed who they are. What gives with the secrecy? Afraid to own up to it? - then you shouldn't have done it.

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I'm sure this is getting tiresome for all, but I thought I'd toss this last perpective into the mix.

Das Muzak was led by Perry Beckham around that same era. His best pro were pitons which he placed (probably on lead, knowing Perry) and left behind. These pins were sketchy to begin with, in time got worse, shaky and rusty and were recently replaced with bolts. No one seems to have a problem with this, I don't. Since preplaced pitons were used on the FA of DDD and then removed, why the selective outrage?

DDD is nothing more than a 1983 sport route that never had the bolts put in.

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"You should have left the bolts alone. If you don't like them don't clip them...the rock is the loser in the end."

Kyle,

I would like to say I would never clip bolts such as the ones placed on DDD, but on the sharp end I clip whatever I see, ethics be damned! Removing the bolts forces climbers to perform at the level of the climb. As long as the bolts were removed in a neat manner and the holes plugged with a mixture of epoxy/sand, the rock should look fine.

 

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quote:

Originally posted by viktor:

DDD is nothing more than a 1983 sport route that never had the bolts put in.

How do you know no one climbed it before 1983? I climbed with some guy who claimed to climb it in the 70's.

 

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I think the first ascent was 1963. My guess is Lepeska and Stoddard were the first to free it unless someone TRed it before. Whatever...

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Who cares if the original first ascent used knifeblades. The fact is, it went CLEAN well before the new bolts were added. Perhaps all bolts should be removed from sport climbs that can be protected clean. There would go half the attrocious bolts at Vantage!

Or how about Numbah Ten at Index, a climb regularly aided on small gear (so it's known that protection can be placed) but some "big-shot" thought he'd do the world a favor by adding a line of bolts so that IT WOULD GO FREE!!! HURRAY!!!! "The rock is permanently damaged but I free climbed it and didn't pound any pins!!! Maybe I'll get my name in a guide book and people will think I'm COOL!!!"

WE CALL THIS BOLTING STUFF PROGRESS????

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Here's what bothered me about the bolting of DDD. Since the forties climbers have

passed underneath the wall it is on by the hundreds. Bolts could have been placed there any time since the fifties and weren't. The route was climbed more than thirty years ago without bolts, and then free-climbed without bolts. Then, in the new millennium, along came a nice line of bolts right over Angel Crack, one of the set pieces of Northwest climbing. What better way to signal that Castle is now just another outdoor Vertical World, ready for a bolt grid?

DDD isn't a classic (in my opinion). Routes with elegant, natural lines are classics, like Angel and Damnation. If I could have my wish, well enough would have been left alone, with two classic routes within ten feet of one another and no DDD at all. It's my view that the route was put up during the era when we still viewed Castle as just a practice rock for bigger things.

To me this whole deal isn't about bolting, its about preservation ethics and esthetics. We don't tolerate graffiti, which is another form of ego gratification for the perpetrator, so we also don't tolerate indiscriminate bolting. Responsible citizens form work parties to clean up graffiti and have articles about their good works published in the newspaper. Nothing is different about the activity covered in this thread. Just as the graffiti artists

have their supporters, so must bolters, but they are in the minority.

Will Strickland's comments about formal regulation of bolting caused to me think about the implications of widespread bolting from a societal perspective, and not just as an individual climber. When a society finds some activity unacceptable, some form of

control is put in place to protect us all, generally, from the potentially negative results of the activity.

Bolts are another form of human-produced scars upon the landscape. They are only

different from strip malls because they are much smaller. We Americans love to hate

strip malls as much as we love to hate bolts. We hate them, but we use them. There's a place for both strip malls and bolts and the trick is in knowing that place. We all won't agree, ever (or only rarely).

There are those that think there is no place inappropriate for a strip mall, and those people are called land "developers". Interestingly, those who are probably most responsible for proliferation of bolts are called route developers.

In America, we have put formal social controls over land developers to protect the

community, however that's defined. These social controls are law, enforced by elected or appointed officials, and influenced by all the other forces familiar in politics (special interest groups like the Access Fund come to mind). It sounds to me like rock walls are now starting to be viewed as a resource in need of societal protection, just like any other part of the public trust.

Now comes the hard part. Assume that preservation of classic routes and their environs, as well as the remaining "classics to come" is the correct ethic. Who decides on the "classicness" of the route, or the level of protection for the surrounding rock? Who decides the correct course for preservation? Is it the locals, whoever they are? Is it a committee, the majority, those willing to post on the web, sport climbers, trad climbers, old climbers, young climbers, bureaucrats?

I don't have answers, but I do have an opinion. I recently re-read a story about Steve Roper's visits to Dresden, Germany with Fritz Weissner. Awesomely hard rock climbing has been done there for almost a century. The ethic there allows for no protection other than bolts and runners, yet bolts are few and far between. The ethic demands that the bolts be placed on lead. These climbers seem to be as competitive as any in the world, and yet they are capable of phenomenal restraint in development of routes to test themselves against. The climbing society there regulates itself, and their klettergarten has remained intact after nearly a century of use, offering challenge to generations of climbers now and into the future.

Maybe this is the model we should strive for.

 

 

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Henry barber even clmbed shoeless on his visit to Dresden, in order to fully appreciate the local standards and practices.

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DDD was first done in 1963 by Dan D. Davis (hence the DDD); he also did many other FAs, Orbit, North Face of Robson, etc., etc.

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what a thread!!! this argument is not new - Ricardo Cassin, in his autobiography "Fifty Years of Alpinism", describes being vilified back in the 1930s, for using pitons for progress on some of his new routes. I like what John Salathe said the fifties: "Vy can't vee chust climb?" Personally, I was saddened by both the bolting and the chopping. Both activities impressed me as a waste. If climbers would "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" neither act would have occurred. However, what's done is done. After the bolts were in, I entertained the thought of pulling them, but then thought "No, leave them as a monument to idiocy" (wow, have to remember that phrase for a route name!!! Now that they're gone, let's pray they don't reappear. I hope this is over.

disclaimer: opinions are like assholes -- every one of us has one, and every one of them STINKS...

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Why not...

I think Retro's an asshole who's lack of diplomacy is going to keep this shit going to the point Govt passes another damn law. Pretty soon we won't even be able to scratch our asses legally.

I won't stand on either side, but I do think this is far from over and chopping with arrogance is only going to put more bolts up there. As who ever said, it'll be the rock that loses in this bolt/chop war.

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Getting soft Cavey? Not offending anyone, leading on preplaced gear. You're not gonna buy one of the nippy little lap dogs next are ya? JFWYD (Just Fuckin' With Ya Dude). I respect your passion and appreciate your shit flippin'.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bronco:

...put some limitations on bolting or "the man" will do it for us. Just imagine getting a permit to place some bolts for a belay station. "ok mr. climber that will be 30 days for planning review, 30 for structural..."


Bronco makes a valid point, this exact scenario is now in place at Sunset, TN. Now it requires a formal review and written permission to place any bolts, and only those for TR anchors have even a slight chance of passing the review, and even those get shot down alot.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yossarian:

Never seen the route in question To listen to a bunch of ranting and critical comments? However, it seems like the choppers where driven by something else other than the notion of preserving the rock. All this talk about posting pictures of the chopping and continuous bragging is hard to listen to. Most of us agree the bolts should not have been placed, but how much praise do you need for chopping them?

Yos,

It was not a matter of praise here. I was confronted by several people that we should post the outcome here. As far as the picture taking well that was our own fun and need not be explained other than my sick mind. I was actually asked by 2 people under this forum to post a picture or 3 but I don't plan to at the moment... You might be surprised what churns in the background of this site...

 

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RE: comments on "ego" and "posturing" on our (the choppers) part.

Yes, we could have just said "It's been chopped" and left it at that. Either way the discussion would have been(and did get) heated very quickly. We are obviously proud of what we did. And, Mitch just put some kindling on the fire to get the inevitable discussion/flame war into full swing. We took a bold step and to dilute those feelings with understatement would not, in my opinion, be the proper course of action.

You have to understand, if we were the type to hang in the background, we probably wouldn't have been the ones up there chopping in the first place.

RE:the hangers...As we discussed at the crag, if we knew who to send them to, we would stick 'em in the mail. They weren't collected as "booty" by any stretch. The hangers were left on the bolts as a plate to pry against. A couple were bent by prying or hammering during the bolt removal process, and the rest were put under some pretty heavy stress from prying...I wouldn't use them again.

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mr.penicil puller,

Maybe you think that I'm an asshole because with only a year and a half of experience you lack the necessary experienceand perspective to form valid judgements.

The only way that the rock is guaranteed to lose is if the community does nothing, allowing this ethical creep to continue.

I am open to diplomacy; I always have been. But it takes two sides working together. The bolters did not step forward when before we took action and are not comming out now.

WAKE UP.

Can this mean anything but admission of guilt and shame? I don't think so. I think the perpetrators don't want to tarnish their reputation by admitting responsibility for their actions.

 

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I checked out DDD on Sunday. No signs of chunks of metal from the ground. It looks like you guys did a quality job.

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If a route was orignally put up as a trad route...it should stay as a trad route.

If a route was put up as a sport route it should stay as a sport route.

If a sport climber can't climb trad, he can't climb the route. In turn, if a trad climber doesn't want to clip bolts, he stays off the sporto routes.

First ascentionist should decide.

I am not thrilled with the chopping and the additude sucks worse...but the bolting of a traditional route is THE WRONG ANSWER.

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okay, pardon my ignorance (especially if it's already been disclosed in this lengthy topic), but...

all this commotion has got me curious. having never climbed at castle, what is DDD like? what type of rating, pro, how long is the route, etc...?

anyway, the ensuing pissing match is lame. kudos to those who restored a trad line back to it's original state. and beyond that, i think it's time for this topic to r.i.p. what's done is done and there's really nothing left to say.

cheers,

micah

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Caveman you aren't coming up here now?? What am I gonna do this weekend? It will be just me and Erik... whos going to shoot the grizzlies??

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quote:

Originally posted by Pencil Pusher:

I think Retro's an asshole who's lack of diplomacy is going to keep this shit going to the point Govt passes another damn law...and chopping with arrogance is only going to put more bolts up there.

Pencil, have you even met Retro? If you had, you'd probably like him, he's a good guy. I don't call you names, although I do find your opinions wishy-washy and way too PC for my own taste. Diplomacy was the first thing that was tried, but it is very hard to be diplomatic when your adversary remains hidden. That said, I find your reasoning a bit askew.

Hmm, chopping adds bolts? Gee pusher, while I was up there chopping I only noticed them going away...

 

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Retro,

If you want to make this personal, that's fine. Send a PM.

To argue with every Tom, Dick and Harry that doesn't appreciate your bullshit shows just how willing you are to hear the bolter's story. I guess it's pull "warm and fuzzy" with a crowbar first, ask questions later, huh?

No shit they don't step forward in front of a firing squad. They're all guilty as sin according to you, so it really wouldn't be YOU LISTENING TO THEM, now would it?

Wannabe experts all over the damn place.

[This message has been edited by Pencil Pusher (edited 07-23-2001).]

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I'm rather sick to my stomach over this whole topic, but does it bother anyone else that a guy from Utah now living in Portland drove to Leavenworth to chop a route?

[This message has been edited by slaphappy (edited 07-23-2001).]

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