Dual vs. Monopoint ... Leashed v.s Leashless

[marc_leclerc]

What do you prefer for ice and why?

[kevino]

Ice cragging: monopoint (petzl darts) and leashless

Alpine: dualpoints (BD sabretooth) and leashes

[marc_leclerc]

I prefer monopoints on stepp, technical ice. I prefer dualpoints on easy alpine ice. In general I like monopoints.

I prety much always use leashes, less pumpy.

[kevino]

I guess I consider leashes (of some nature) for alpine so you don't lose your tool! Big difference between dropping them down a one pitch ice climb vs 3K foot face.

[spike1970]

Crampons: Rambo IV mono points as long as I don't have to walk in them. Cyborgs or Sabertooth depending on conditions and if the climbs are easier or alpine.

Leashless: I went and took turn on the same climb the other day with leashes and without over and over on an overhanging route, same climb same tools and everytime I was more pumped with leashes, I think they cut off too much circulation.

Edited November 25, 2008 by spike1970

[Dane]

Leashless on everything, with unbilicals of course once you get 70 meters off the ground. Monos on mixed, duals on ice.

[MikeW]

I would agree with Dane. As does CH in his article on Alpine gear. Leashes actually use more energy than leashless. Undoing and re-attaching the leashes could lead to dropping your tools by knocking them out of the ice, especially on thin ice.

[genepires]

if you are using more energy with leashes on, then maybe your leashes are either not set up right or you need some good leashes or you need to learn how to use them right. ANdroids are easy to get in and out of. (the button part must be set right so that it is not accidentally released while grabbing the head)

 

I find it completely baffeling how people can say that leashes use more energy on thick ice climbing.

[Dane]

if you are using more energy with leashes on, then maybe your leashes are either not set up right....................

I find it completely baffeling how people can say that leashes use more energy on thick ice climbing.

 

Buddy of mind was amazed I could switch to leashless so easily. He decided it was the hiatus of several years off that allowed me to open my mind and become a convert. I switched last season over a week's climbing in Canada after being on water fall ice since '73. Now on anything from the Central line on Weeping wall to moderate M climbs I watch my partners thrash away, obviously to me wasting energy. All the while I am leashless, enjoying life. Trust me if it weren't easier...by a good margin...I wouldn't be doing it. Yup, leashless (on a good tool set up) saves you energy over any leash system....no matter the terrain. It takes an old fat guy to really make that observation with some clarity.

 

There are lots of advantages to leashless but let me address just steep ice.

Your circulation will be better so you can climb in a thinner glove and stay warmer.

A thinner glove will allow more energy savings holding the tool.

You'll be much, much faster putting in screws, a biggie for most.

You can switch hands on the tools or climb on just one tool, reach farther by matching on one tool, traverse and rest much, much easier. You can easily drop and shake a arm at any time delaying the arrival of a pump. All of that will make you a faster climber on vertical ice (or any ice)..again saving energy.

 

Modern tools, designed as a leashless system, really are a big improvement over the very best leash system, for any style of climbing. I would never have believed it myself. And it took some effort to force myself through the change. But I'll never go back and I am climbing harder now than I ever have on ice and mixed because of it.

 

[genepires]

Your arguement doesn't fly that well. I use thin gloves with leashes. I don't grip the shaft hard so circulation is very good. Screws go in as fine as leashless with androids. I am out of the tool in less than half second. The only thing to help with my getting the screws placements is to buy new screws.

 

I can rest on the leash with no grip on the tool and release the other other hand easily to shake it out. Whereas you must hang on to a tool to shake out the other. It is all about the leash that lets you get out quick. Maybe in your absence, you missed out on some great leashes.

 

You got me with the matching on tools, switching hands (and all the other fancy tool shenanegans) but I am talking about thick ice and those techniques are not needed. There is no doubt about mixed game as to what is a better system. You defiantely will get physically stronger with leashless because you have to.

 

I not saying this as some old staunchy wool clad climber, afraid of change, but someone who tried both and didn't like the leashless tools.

 

 

[G-spotter]

You can easily match on tools etc. while using clipper leashes - just unclip them when needed. Unlike going leashless, though, you can still clip back in for a rest if you get a good stick.

[Dane]

Hey I aint selling anything or having an arguement. Just my own observations If you are convinced otherwise from your own experience.....as a few of my buddies are, more power to you!

 

You got me with the matching on tools, switching hands (and all the other fancy tool shenanegans) but I am talking about thick ice and those techniques are not needed. There is no doubt about mixed game as to what is a better system. You defiantely will get physically stronger with leashless because you have to.

 

For the sake of discussion. It is all those fancy shenanegans that can make even steep thick ice easier and if I am any example you can be less strong and climb better leashless.

 

Not trying to diss your comments just found them in error for my own climbing. YMMV

 

Funny though, I just recited the things I started noticing the end of the first week I forcing myself to climb leashless. After I posted I went and read C Haley's article. Some how I came to the exact same conclusions

 

Like I said, if it wasn't easier...I wouldn't be doing it.

 

 

[genepires]

Not trying to get in arguements either. Just that lots of new people read this site to figure things out (why here?) and I am just providing more info for their personal choices.

 

but what they heck, less people are climbing anyways.

 

 

[dbconlin]

Unless you climb with Androids AND umbilicals, you still risk dropping your tools...especially while unclipping/clipping those pesky things.

[max]

Something that hasn't been mentioned:

 

I only want to have one pair of tools and crampons. It's part style, part finances, and part ethics (too many toys = wasteful), part practical.

 

Leashless just aren't going to cut it for a glacier tool, a reality of many cascades ice climbs.

 

I'd assume monos don't cut it as well on cruddy some ice/thick snow (anybody weigh in on this?)

 

My vote: leashed. duals. Keep your nuts square when you unclip the leashes.

[dbconlin]

Leashless just aren't going to cut it for a glacier tool, a reality of many cascades ice climbs.

 

Au contraire, mon frere...I do it all the time. Why not?

[Dane]

I only want to have one pair of tools and crampons. It's part style, part finances....

 

Leashes and dual points will get you up 99.99% of the climbs out there. Done 99.99% of my own climbing with the similar rigs.

 

Now I have a quiver of boots, tools and crampons...which is only wasteful if i don't use them all on occasion Hardest part these days is deciding what set of gear to take!

 

From the original tone/choices of the poll I thought Marc wanted to know what we use "generally" on technical ICE. Glacier travel might well get a different answer and a different set of gear.

[G-spotter]

One nice thing you can do with M10s and Cyborgs etc. is use an offset dual point setup. I have the inside point, under my big toe, long and the outside point, under my 4th toe, short. For rock moves I can get a single point on, mono-style, on small pockets and edges. For crappy ice I still get two points, especially with the feet turned in slighty pigeon-toed for narrow icicles.

 

I liked a single mono for versatility but found it wasn't stable enough most of he time, and hence more tiring than dual points. Offset duals for me have none of the drawbacks of duals OR of monos. Best of both worlds.

 

Interestingly enough for real mixed, especially alpine, with lots of crampons on bare rock going on I took Dr. Slawinskis advice and started using a pair of Sabretooths. You get way more steel on the rock this way (especially with the flat frontpoints) and your feet stick much more. Sabretooths on a bare granite or limestone slab are like sticky rubber rock shoe as compared to a skittery mono point feeling more like a running shoe.

[ScaredSilly]

Lets see I have a pair of hinged SMC with straps - great for my old 3/4 shank boots, a classic pair of Salewa hinged step ins - great for other boots as are my old Chouinard rigids, also step ins (by far the best expedition crampons ever made) and a pair of Trango Harpoons (can be dual or mono) currently set to mono.

 

As for leash versus leashless. I used a pair of the Androids, POS used them once. I can get in and out of a pair of old twist leashes faster. Rather old school so I prefer leashes. But that does not mean I use them all the time. Hell I have been swapping tools mid move, high balling off the top for years, all tricks of the trade. And with all the fancy outriggers on tools these days they are just another form of "leash".

 

 

 

[Dane]

It is Two years later. Has any one changed their mind?

[upzmtn]

I think mono's make/let you climb better. No leveraging out/off secondary points on dime edges or ice features. After climbing on monos for over-well, a long time-it's hard to argue against the benefit of pulling a fluid drop knee or hip rotation of a svelte mono. And on crappy ice, stepping into your pick holes is a priceless bene that has saved many a climb from collapsing. In wet, crappy snow I kick harder to engage secondary points and the I-beam construction of most monos today seems just fine for my 150 lbs.

 

On leashes, I've dropped (knocked out) a tool with old-school lockers mid-crux pitch on Louise Falls while placing a screw and had androids mysteriously come unclipped at the top of climbs while dangling them. Most notorious was at the top of the Coleman headwall-there's still a nice cobra in some crack up there. You can always drop tools if not careful.

 

Switching up hands when there is only one good placement and you're pumped silly - priceless. I don't agree that you need to be in better shape either. You just need to change your style to accommodate the advantages provided by climbing unleashed. It still freaks me out at times, but I'm always blown away at the top of a climb how often I switched-up tools, de-pumped with ease, and paced pro way faster. I'd probably wimp out and bring my old cobras on big or remote climbs, but I probably won't be saying that for much longer.

Edited December 1, 2010 by upzmtn

[genepires]

still on leashes and duals. Not more than 7 days on ice though in those 2 years.

 

I did see 2 short lead falls during last trip by leashless climbers. Yours truly was quite possibly the only leashed climber in all of hyalite all thanksgiving weekend. Experts and newbies alike.

 

maybe I should just climb on straight shaft pulsars? anybody got a pair? Would people respect my leashes if it was on a pair of old gray rambo tools?

Edited December 1, 2010 by genepires

[kukuzka1]

Gotta be a reason most of the new school kids are going without leashes. dane nailed it right on the head

[Coldfinger]

I'm going to be leashless in about one week, pretty stoked.

 

I have to say the whole leash thing kinda freaked me out, being pumped stupid and tied to my tools, circulation cut off, all the wriggling in and out of em to get in pro, etc.

 

That being said i'm not sure how I am going to react to that first day, I am thinking I'll be really focused on hauling ass, which is a nice way to dance on--instead of hack up--the ice.

 

PS I'm switching to horizontal front points!

 

Thinner gloves are going to be fun tho, I'm SURE I'll like that!

Edited December 1, 2010 by Coldfinger

[kinnikinnick]

I think one of the most important skills in the climber’s repertoire is knowing exactly what gear to take for any given climb, and taking no more and no less than what is required. When I go climbing, I choose tools based on the nature of the route. (I want to reiterate that I am speaking from the perspective of what I want in the mountains and what works for me, and am not trying to establish an ultimatum for the climbing community as a whole.) On a hard trad climb at Index, I climb in an aggressive pair of shoes with a chalk bag on my harness. On a long, easy ridge climb in the mountains, I ditch the chalk and wear looser shoes for comfort. If the freezing level is high, though, and there are consecutive pitches of 5.9 difficulty or higher, I will take a chalk bag. But if the freezing level is forecasted to be low that day, the chalk bag will probably stay at home. Similarly, I want different ice tools for different climbs. On a climb like Airborne Ranger in Hyalite, I’d use a pair of Nomics and a pair of crampons with vertically oriented frontpoints. On a climb like the North Face of Chair Peak, however, I don’t care if I’m using Nomics or straight-shafted Black Prophets with leashes, because on low angle ice, you aren’t really hanging from your arms much. And if you aren’t really hanging on your arms, the pump-factor and circulation issues aren’t a problem (for me). It’s also important to note that there are many different tools and many different kinds of leashes. and some of them really suck. Some leashes cut off circulation and are hard to get out of to place protection. Some leashes keep the blood flowing and are damn easy to pop your hand out of to place a screw. Another time I'll bring leashes is if the terrain requires frequently transitioning from dagger position to actually swinging tools. Much easier to move your hand up and down the tool with a well-made pair of leashes than it is with umbilicals. On a glacier climb with a couple pitches of technical ice climbing like the North Ridge of Baker, I’ll take an ice axe and a slightly curved tool, both with leashes. I wouldn’t take a pair of Nomics on that climb for a couple reasons: on a two-person rope team, I like the peace of mind afforded by an ice axe if my partner were to slip and I had to arrest his fall. (Although I’m sure there are sensible ways of arresting with an ice tool, it just seems easier and safer with an ice axe) Second, on glacier climbs, it is not uncommon to be in exposed terrain without protection; in these situations, a solid self-belay with an ice-axe is reassuring. Call me a n00b if you want, I don’t care. I know you can self-belay with modern curved tools, but it doesn’t feel as bomber to me. And I’m aware that people like Ueli Steck are using Nomics for just about any alpine ice route, but Steck is a fucking professional who probably hasn’t self-belayed with an ice axe ever. To summarize, I want state of the art ice tools for difficult ice routes. On easy ice, I don’t really care. If the route requires a lot of glacier travel, I like having an ice axe. Not saying my way should be yours, however.