R&D newbie close call, anchors needed?

[hafilax]

Coefficient of friction?

[telemarker]

blowing his whistle and waiting for a rescue.

 

So, did this guy keep blowing his whistle right up until you reached him? Now THAT would be annoying.

 

 

[Bug]

Mikester and Halifax......

Go have a look.

[mike1]

maybe I will!

[DirtyHarry]

If circumstances deteriorate to such life and death situations on the big stone of Icicle Creek Buttress, why don't the gapers just leave gear? That way it can be removed later by such unscrupulous individuals as myself, the rock remains unscarred, and the gapers survive. Everybody wins.

[builder206]

You could be a crux troll, hanging out at the crux waiting for someone to get gripped. Then you charge a fee to unlock the moves for them.

 

As a sideline you could sell rap slings. Save money by using tats you’ve cleaned.

 

Hang out at Eight Mile CG and encourage the tinhorns to get on stuff they can’t climb, then wait for them at the crux with your bag o’ goodies. A bolt drill is free to borrow but each bolt & hanger costs $50.

[ropegoat]

Just putting in my vote:

 

I am a relatively new trad leader. I also believe ethics are an essential part of climbing, period. I strongly agree about all comments related to "bad judgement-->experience-->good judgement" because it is the path that I am walking.

 

I have NEVER seen a bolt placed that did not get used, especially on a newbie route- to most newbies, if you put a bolt there, it will be used, because people will assume that if a bolt is there, it is part of the ethics of the area- which is not the case here.

 

Thus, my vote is no bolts. I left gear on routes for other people to collect, shit happens. Maybe they didn't have the knowledge to extricate themselves, but I don't think bolts are the answer.

[dmuja]

Really, the issue here is people like this "leader" taking someone up a route that they weren't ready for and allowing the situation to get stupidly dangerous - or dangerously stupid. Either way, dumbing down yet another route is not the answer.

 

RnD is a good route they way it is. It shouldn't become another "sportrad" victim. The route is pretty easy climbing (mostly 4th class even), but that doesn't mean that everyone who has never climbed anything before should just "go do it". Despite the easy rating it can present some challenges especially to the less experienced.

 

 

For any future RnD hard-person comers, I offer the following beta:

 

The route has some easy but thoughtful and exposed moves.

 

It has some exposed "no fall" ledges that can break bones if you hit them.

 

It does not have chains to tell you where the end of a pitch is.

 

You can't just "bail" on some bolts (yet?), instead you would have to down climb or leave some of your rack to bail so the best way off is to top out.

 

The infamous "crack" pitch is a genuine 5.6 hand jam crack pitch that seems to get 5.8 offwidth until you notice the large hold above your right hand - the one you missed because you were beginning to panic and think "sand bag".

 

You need to be thoughtful about where you build your belay anchor above the crack - go too far up and you will have less anchor and be less likely to help your "newb" partner who may have trouble at the "off-width" crack.

 

The infamous "Icicle canyon wind" will blast you all day so get ready for it.

 

The infamous "boulder" at the top is a good anchor for a quick belay for a SHORT last pitch - NOT for belaying a newb through the crux crack far below you.

 

The infamous "boulder" is not there for a rappel anchor so resist the urge.

 

The infamous "blank and anchorless" slab at the top sould not be an issue if you have pitched out the route correctly in that the last pitch should require naught much more than a hip belay if you have a competent second.

 

People that have never climbed cracks before should not be on RnD.

 

People that have not built and hung on (tested) their trad anchors should not be on RnD.

 

People (teams) that do not have a clear set of rope signals worked out ahead of time should not be on RnD.

 

Leaders who cannot pull a second up nor teach one how to jug a line should not be leading RnD.

[mkporwit]

Amen dmuja

 

Doing the route last fall at the rope-up as a newbie trad leader, these were all things I kept in mind.

 

Well, except for missing that huge hand hold for the right hand, apparently... Nothing a quick french free move didn't fix

[fenderfour]

It takes a big man to admit french free on a 5.6.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

It takes a big man to admit french free on a 5.6.

 

he's a big man

[telemarker]

You can't just "bail" on some bolts (yet?), instead you would have to down climb or leave some of your rack to bail so the best way off is to top out.

 

The infamous "crack" pitch is a genuine 5.6 hand jam crack pitch that seems to get 5.8 offwidth until you notice the large hold above your right hand - the one you missed because you were beginning to panic and think "sand bag".

 

FWIW, there is an easy but exposed walk off at the base of the last crack pitch of R 'n D/top of Cocaine Crack. Walk straight west over easy ledges, and downclimb 4th class terrain that leads to the descent trail.

[sammy]

No anchors needed...it is a trad route. It is a great beginner trad route. To add bolts would render it something different.

 

Just because one party got in over their head does not mean that the route needs to be altered.

 

Poor judgment shouldn't lead to rescue bolts.

[ilookeddown]

People that have never climbed cracks before should not be on RnD.

 

RnD was my first trad and crack MP lead. It is a great place to learn and should not be altered.

[spotly]

I'll certainly split that last pitch up next time or at least get smarter with my runners. I'll have to keep an eye out for that hold on the last crack too.

 

That block seemed secure to me but so did that hold that popped on me last year. Still, I don't think bolts are needed.

[Jason_Martin]

There is a gear anchor just below the boulder. In a rescue situation one should not worry about leaving gear behind.

 

If someone put bolts in on such an old line, someone else would just pull them out. The last thing we need in the Icicle is another bolt war.

 

Jason

[sobo]

I agree with most everything dmuja said (although I don't agree with the notion that you shouldn't get on RnD if you've never led cracks before - it's an excellent first trad crack multi-pitch lead, IMO), and with everything that Jason said.

 

To sum up: bolts are not necessary, nor required, on this route for any reason.

[shaoleung]

R&D is a classic noob trad climb. Leavenworth has plenty of other easy routes to cut your teeth on, but one of the coolest things about R&D is that it is 100% you, your skills and the rock. No matter what you put up - via ferrata or nothing at all - Darwin is always hard at work, and there will always be someone inexperienced enough to get themselves in trouble.

 

I'm all for bolt anchors where gear is impossible or dangerous... but R&D is just fine except if you need to rescue someone and no one else is around to help you... but hey, "Rock climbing is a hazardous activity where inexperience, ignorance and/or bad luck can result in dire consequences."

[kevbone]

Christine and I had a nice time climbing cocaine connection - R&D 5.6 (Icicle buttress, Leavenworth) Saturday. At the top, we continued up to Bob's wall and I was halfway up the 5.8+ on the right side of Bob's when a newbie came running up to the climb and said his buddy was stuck on a ledge 60 meters down R&D. The crack was too hard, and or the rope was stuck and his buddy had untied from the rope and was "hunkered down", blowing his whistle and waiting for a rescue. This guy had hiked down the trail on the left side of Icicle buttress and yelled at his unanchored friend to stay put, help was coming.

 

We bailed and took our rope and gear down to the top of R&D. We'd actually passed the girl and her two newbies on the route and were wondering what had taken them so long to top out. The girl (the only leader) had slung a cordelette around that largest bolder on the sloping ramp at the top of R&D and was preparing to rappel with two ropes down to her newbie friend.

 

She'd wanted to anchor to the tree 80 feet up slope, but it was too far away as the ledge he'd stopped on was exactly 60 meters down, and change.

 

I think there should be bolts there. Not a rap station, but a couple bolts for a situation just like this. I could have belayed her down to the horizontal crack 50 feet down, and she could have built a rap anchor there...but in rescue situation...it seems like the top is a safer place.

 

I tied off the tree 80 feet up and tied a figure eight in my rope at the boulders, which she used as a rap anchor. But if we'd not been there, things would have become much more complicated, her being the only person with experience, and no anchors...unless you count that big boulder on the sandy slope.

 

She took a verizon cell phone down, and we had one on top. She rapped down, tied her newbie in and climbed up below him, Chistine and I belaying both of them while the other newbie chattered on about how marvelous it all was, and had we been to Yosemite? For one of them, it was their first time climbing outside. I guess he figured he could just walk off if it got too hard...yikes!

 

Scary stuff, and alls well that ends well...still, I really thing bolts up there would make things safer.

 

Let the flaming start!

 

 

Mark .....in the future....try not to start a thread about it....just go put them in yourself.

[John Frieh]

Just to add some fuel to the fire: climbing rangers are considering adding a via ferrata to a particular col in the Bugaboos that seems to be popular with some to fall down it

 

 

[shaoleung]

There's definitely a place for fixed steel... though I am pretty sure the 11worth community wouldn't stand for it there.

[markwebster]

I've got a drill and a hammer, but would never consider adding bolts to someone else's route without first consulting the larger community. We don't need bolt wars up there. I love the fact that it has no bolts and requires you to have gear skills. Still, thought I'd at least ask...turns out I'm wrong again.

 

As many of you know, I thought also of adding bolts to my Cocaine Connection route a couple years ago when I couldn't get up my own damn route. But people said no, I just needed to brush up my rusty friction skills, that the run out was half the fun. And they were right!

[kevbone]

So the slabby area at the top is part of the origial route?

[Pestokitty]

I personally know 3 climbers who've been seriously injured in falls on R&D. You might glean from this that all my friends are lousy climbers, but I would put it down to the fact that a lot of inexperienced climbers lead R&D because of it's moderate difficulty and location right next to the road. I've anchored from the rock at the top 4 times, even though I'm not someone who's reluctant to reject an anchor if I think it might not be strong enough. I also read the analysis of the Sharkfin accident, and know at least one of the authors, and have been even more dilligent about evaluating potential anchors. That said, that rock ain't movin'. I don't know how accurate Bug's calculation is, but 8000# wouldn't surprise me at all. The biggest problem with that rock is that it's about 61 meters from where you started the pitch, so I always make sure to move my belayer right up close to the wall in hopes that I can make it to the rock without us having to simul-climb a bit.

I agree that it doesn't make sense to put bolts everywhere someone has difficulty anchoring. On the other hand, local rescue personnel are all too familiar with that route, and if THEY felt they needed bolts installed to facilitate rescues, or avoid some, I'd support that.

I'd also point out to sport climbers that, while you may be stronger than me, that doesn't mean you know how to climb trad, and the learning curve for it is a lot longer than the one for clipping bolts. You need to get competent instruction, and anyone teaching you to lead on gear should also be teaching you self-rescue. Oh, and I climb sport quite a bit, too so spare me your US vs. THEM flaming, I was just making a point, that's all.

[AR_Guy]

I only did my first trad lead over the winter of 06 to 07. I led R&D last summer.

 

For a competent, well taught/mentored newbie trad leader, it's an entirely doable route as is - no bolts needed.

 

"The infamous "blank and anchorless" slab at the top sould not be an issue if you have pitched out the route correctly in that the last pitch should require naught much more than a hip belay if you have a competent second. " - dmuja above

 

 

I'm a little wary of the boulder up top, but as was pointed out in the quote, if you pitch it out right, the last pitch is (can be) pretty short and isn't all that bad.

 

I'm not so sure I'll agree with the comment above about this being an ok route if you've never done crack before. I'd say you do need to know how to at least hand and fist jam. When I did this route, we got stuck behind a party whose leader didn't know how to jam the hand crack. After futzing around for about 20 minutes trying to face climb past it, he finally backed off back to the belay and let us pass. I got up to where he had been frustrated, clipped his perfectly placed #1 camalot that protected the moves very well and with a few quick and straight forward hand jams moved right up and through with no problem. We brought up their rope and belayed their leader up on TR to get him past the crack. So, I'd suggest having at least basic jamming skills.