Northwest Forest Pass violation

[Choada_Boy]

.....Based on a few recent conversations.....it sounds to me as if this program is generally unpopular within the Service just as it is with many of us hikers and climbers. It IS their job to enforce the law, though......3 out of 4 of them, anyway) are just trying to do their job. Your typical ranger is not in it for the money.

 

Baby Steps to the Abyss:

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Halt! Ihre Papiere, bitte!

[kublaicon]

just park 1/4 mile away from the trailhead. in most places there is a sign saying you are entering a fee site. park right infront of that sign, as its normally 1/4 mile away. if there are two trailheads on one stretch of road, give both a 1/4 mile buffer and youll be fine.

[sobo]

just park 1/4 mile away from the trailhead.

That is passive civil disobedience. What is required to reverse this bullshit law is active civil disobedience. Fee Demo started out as a demonstration project that was later "turned into" a law by being attached as a sneaky rider to an omnibus government spending bill. It has been forced upon the general population without going through the law-making process. That is NOT how laws in this country are supposed to be made. They are supposed to be made with input from the constituency, which Fee Demo was not. Therefore, is it a bullshit law. A law nonetheless by virtue of the passing of the omnibuss bill, but still a bullshit law. So it must be fought to be overturned by civil disobedience. And passive civil disobedience just ain't gonna cut it.

[willstrickland]

just park 1/4 mile away from the trailhead.

 

You assume there actually IS a place to park before the signs. Often that is not the case.

 

I was in the USFS Big Bear office a few weeks ago. They have a binder on the front table detailing where their retained funds from the NW Pass equivalent (Adventure Pass or somesuch) are spent. Something like 20% was for enforcement, the other was fluff programs, signage, etc.

 

Either fund the agencies properly, or cut services. Personally I say cut services.

 

Here is what they say on their site:

 

It is quite a challenge to show the public where their Adventure Pass fees are invested. An important message is that "sometimes it's what you don't see that counts." While clearly visible improvements have been made to many trails and aging facilities, a high percentage of pass revenue is invested in the custodial services for standard amenities the public expects—such as cleaning restrooms and fire-rings, picking up litter, repairing repeated vandalism and providing field rangers to accomplish the work.

 

 

 

[sobo]

It is quite a challenge to show the public where their Adventure Pass fees are invested. An important message is that "sometimes it's what you don't see that counts." While clearly visible improvements have been made to many trails and aging facilities, a high percentage of pass revenue is invested in the custodial services for standard amenities the public expects—such as cleaning restrooms and fire-rings, picking up litter, repairing repeated vandalism and providing field rangers to accomplish the work.

I call bullshit on that. Those services were well in place, funded, and were occurring lonnnnnnnnnnnnng before Fee Demo ever came around 10 years ago. It is a question of funding, but a simple one that can be rectified by collecting the actual value of the timber sold and minerals harvested, instead of just giving it away to timber and mining companies. If the NFS got their head out of its ass and charged Weyerhauser, Boise-Cascade, Crown Jewel Mines, etc. etc. etc., the actual value of the board-feet and ore harvested/mined, there wouldn't be a need for Fee Demo.

[mattp]

I don't know the facts, Sobo, but I wonder if there are enough timber sales in, say, the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest, to support the road and trail system that they have even if they DID charge higher rates on the timber sales. I have not seen may loaded log trucks coming out of the woods in recent years.

 

I agree with everything else you say about how the NW Forest Pass is a bad program that should never have been adopted and wasn't given much of a public process, though. I also agree that it appears that most of the fees are NOT used to support the road and trail infrastructure, and the problems we face with roads and trails going unmaintained is largely a matter of budget priorities and politics.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't know the facts, Sobo, but I wonder if there are enough timber sales in, say, the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest, to support the road and trail system that they have even if they DID charge higher rates on the timber sales. I have not seen may loaded log trucks coming out of the woods in recent years.

 

I agree with everything else you say about how the NW Forest Pass is a bad program that should never have been adopted and wasn't given much of a public process, though. I also agree that it appears that most of the fees are NOT used to support the road and trail infrastructure, and the problems we face with roads and trails going unmaintained is largely a matter of budget priorities and politics.

 

how much would it take to fully fund all the NFS and NPS programs at 100%? 1 day of the cost of Iraq?

 

[Choada_Boy]

Halt! Ihre Papiere, bitte!

 

 

"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

[GSHC]

 

Well there's a starting point of something we can both agree on anyway. I can't say when I got all crotchety, but sure as shit it happened at some point. I was climbing with a fella Saturday, we were talking and I was quite a bit older than his father as it turns out, and this guy was a college grad too. BTW, I didn't realize you were a girl. I still harbor angry anti-authoritarian feelings because it is in my upbringing and I'm still a sad and mean old man. This is excaberated due to who you represent (and what they are in actuality) and how you come across in your first sorry assed post on this site.

 

Furthermore, I reserve the word "dickless" as a derogatory for men who are spineless weasels, types that I would just kick in the balls if they were present (and spoke the kind of shit you just layed down), of which I originally thought you were one.

 

I misspoke somewhat.

 

But not by much....and we should still all be working to get you and your entire sorry crews ass's defunded so you can go do something productive and real while we take OUR money and put it someplace productive: and in unison and in harmony: we should ALL saw every damn sign you asswipes put up. EVERYWHERE AND EVERYTIME.

 

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous

[Ron Mexico]

 

Well there's a starting point of something we can both agree on anyway. I can't say when I got all crotchety, but sure as shit it happened at some point. I was climbing with a fella Saturday, we were talking and I was quite a bit older than his father as it turns out, and this guy was a college grad too. BTW, I didn't realize you were a girl. I still harbor angry anti-authoritarian feelings because it is in my upbringing and I'm still a sad and mean old man. This is excaberated due to who you represent (and what they are in actuality) and how you come across in your first sorry assed post on this site.

 

Furthermore, I reserve the word "dickless" as a derogatory for men who are spineless weasels, types that I would just kick in the balls if they were present (and spoke the kind of shit you just layed down), of which I originally thought you were one.

 

I misspoke somewhat.

 

But not by much....and we should still all be working to get you and your entire sorry crews ass's defunded so you can go do something productive and real while we take OUR money and put it someplace productive: and in unison and in harmony: we should ALL saw every damn sign you asswipes put up. EVERYWHERE AND EVERYTIME.

 

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous

 

Hard at work eh?

[kevino]

You're right, anyone with an opinion against the nw forest pass is a grumpy old man or wants to blow up government buildings. WTF?

 

Since we're making broad assumptions here can we call you and your supervisor hillary clinton wannabes - some bitchy women with power?

[W]

I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence.

 

As a government employee, you're both a steward of the land and a public servant. Your attitude portrays neither, rather, it portrays that of an arrogant, insecure, high handed authoritarian who took the job in a quest for an illusory personal power over others.

 

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. She thinks some of you may be dangerous.

 

Is this a veiled threat of some kind? Will there be an investigation? You and your supervisor sound quite dangerous, actually.

 

I'd like to know what the USFS budget is for "surfing internet climbing and outdoor recreation sites in the search for dangerous individuals". I'm sure my congressman would be interested to know also.

 

 

[olyclimber]

i imagine with federal funds being tight that the government's first priority should be trolling bulletin boards for stuff said on there, cuz sometimes its even true!

[G-spotter]

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office.

 

forget the cc.com, you should be wondering if she's also been accessing your lavalife and facebook while you're away from the office

 

Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your [sic] a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous.

 

Articulate young men and women with ideas that challenge the status quo are always considered dangerous by governments and bureaucrats...

[kevino]

Martin Luther King was super dangerous.

 

and Ghandi.

 

[JosephH]

Now I agree 'usage fees' are double taxation, but your president has been hammering the FS budget to death and his appointees have been redirecting what they do get to some pretty sad uses. That and fighting fires the last couple of years has hammered the budget further. And this year oil prices are going to complete the triple whammy as the FS fuel budget isn't in any way prepared to deal with the increases. It all makes for a pretty desperate budget crunch at the FS these days.

 

I'd say if you wanted to get to the root of the FS's feeling the need for these fee programs, I'd say you should start with this administration and the Republicans who have together screwed the agency at every turn and focused what minimal budget they've left it on supporting logging. From my perspective this is a lot of public invective of questionable use beyond momentarily feeling better. Your best shot at eliminating these fee programs is complaining to you representatives in Congress (unless of course you live in ID or MT ) and voting Democratic in November.

 

http://www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/budget/

[sobo]

I don't know the facts, Sobo, but I wonder if there are enough timber sales in, say, the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest, to support the road and trail system that they have even if they DID charge higher rates on the timber sales. I have not seen may loaded log trucks coming out of the woods in recent years.

There may not be that much logging in the upper MB/SNF; I don't know since I don't live up that way. But the lower MB/SNF ends near Rimrock Lake in the Tieton Basin. And I can tell you that they're hauling trees left and right out of the area around Rimrock Lake. They just finished logging the area immediately east of Goose Egg Mountain last year or so.

 

[aside]Look at the state map: the eastern boundary of the MB/SNF protrudes all the way down to Rimrock Lake. It comes down to SR-410 and jumps it, scoots around the east side of the William O. Douglas Wilderness Area, hops over US-12, scoots around the south side of Rimrock Lake, and ends when it butts up against the Goat Rocks Wilderness Area.[/aside]

 

And there is a good deal of logging going in the Gifford Pinchot NF south of MRNP. So overall, I would suspect that they could find a price that balances out the heavily logged areas vs. the not-so-heavily logged areas. And all that rot about the NW Forest Pass money going back to the areas from whence the passes were purchased is a bunch of bullshit. You think that the NFS can track that money that well? Shit, the gummint can't even find 11 million illegal aliens. And even if they could track the money, why would they care to? It just goes to pay salaries for enforcement (read: GSHC and others) and more signs telling us to pay.

[crackers]

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous

 

I'm late to all this vitriol, and I'm not a very competitive or argumentative person. It's kinda shocking really.

 

Mr or Mrs or Ms or whatever GHSC, Could you please provide this community of very real people with your bona fides, including your supervisor's name and contact information? I'm sure that you and your supervisor would like to engage in a discussion about this very real issue in such a way that involves your most active user communities rather than creates a plethora of lawsuits, intense lobbying, and all of the administrative head aches that will come from this...

 

In any event, GHSC is probably a troll.

 

Why? I'm pretty sure that posting like GHSC has done above violates a large number of federal government regulations that pretty much cover all full time employees, and I'm certain that if done from a work computer it is totally illegal. It will be simple enough to subpoena cascadeclimbers and the ip of the poster to determine their identity in the litigation. If any of the above, extremely offensive to me, posting written by GHSC were done with a government computer, well...it sure as heck violates a ton of department of agriculture and interior regulations and guidelines for appropriate use of federally owned internet facilities.

[sobo]

yeah! what crackers said.

 

 

HEY! Who pulled mtnnut's picture of the Glacier NW Forest Pass "fuck you" sign? That was precious.

 

(Page 1, Post #5, of this thread)

[Cat Butt]

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous

 

Timothy who? This is the only dangerous McVie I know of!

 

[mattp]

GHSW may well be a troll altogether, and certainly she is trolling in this thread, but I would say that lurking on cc.com would actually probably be within the job description of a recreation manager type employee.

 

Talking smack on the Internet might violate some Federal regulations but there wouldn't be a whole lot to this spray forum if nobody ever abused their work access to the Internet.

[G-spotter]

"Whatever is not forbidden is compulsory."

 

If your work does not block cc.com, they WANT you to post. Obviously.

[zeroforhire]

My supervisor had been reading this thread while I was away from the office. Now she's wondering if you all are a bunch of tired old burn outs, or Timothy McVie wanna be's. She is Jewish, and views the Nazi analogies very dimly. I think your a bunch of loud mouthed idiots, of no real consequence. She thinks some of you may be dangerous

 

I'm late to all this vitriol, and I'm not a very competitive or argumentative person. It's kinda shocking really.

 

Mr or Mrs or Ms or whatever GHSC, Could you please provide this community of very real people with your bona fides, including your supervisor's name and contact information? I'm sure that you and your supervisor would like to engage in a discussion about this very real issue in such a way that involves your most active user communities rather than creates a plethora of lawsuits, intense lobbying, and all of the administrative head aches that will come from this...

 

In any event, GHSC is probably a troll.

 

Why? I'm pretty sure that posting like GHSC has done above violates a large number of federal government regulations that pretty much cover all full time employees, and I'm certain that if done from a work computer it is totally illegal. It will be simple enough to subpoena cascadeclimbers and the ip of the poster to determine their identity in the litigation. If any of the above, extremely offensive to me, posting written by GHSC were done with a government computer, well...it sure as heck violates a ton of department of agriculture and interior regulations and guidelines for appropriate use of federally owned internet facilities.

 

Amen crackers...

 

After reading through this thread that has seemed to explode with arguments and emotions; I am left with a few thoughts.

1. First off, the jew comments and hitler comments really aren't needed, are they? Come on... there are more productive, mature ways to vent your frustrations. Don't give all climbers a bad name by your rash and unnecessary, offensive diatribes.

2. This is obviously an issue that most people care deeply about... why don't we come up with some constructive way to address this? (IE get a FS employee on here to explain themselves, and move from there) I am all for these small ideas to grow and actually cause changes.

3. With that vein of thought in mind, who do we actually contact to get some straight info on this topic?

 

 

just my 2 cents...

[G-spotter]

3. With that vein of thought in mind, who do we actually contact to get some straight info on this topic?

 

 

just my 2 cents...

 

Phone the FS office and ask to speak to Ms. Jennifer Talltree. She is the district representative.

 

Her number is 206-867-5309.