Leash or no leash?

[sirwoofalot]

Have you ever heard of clipping in your mountaineering ax to your harness? Or do you keep your M/A free?

 

I have heard two arguments for each. If you are clipped into your ax and need to arrest then you do not have to hold the weight of one to three other people; however, a loose M/A when falling can be a lethal weapon.

 

Once when I was climbing in Mexico with moderate ice, we were clipped in. At the anchors we got a solid placement with our Mountaineering ax before running through the anchor.

 

But what about something like Rainier? There is not really any steep ice, at least not on the cleaver route.

 

I guess as I think about this more maybe the answer is in the question of what you are doing, and the conditions.

 

 

Please give me your comments.

 

Thanks,

 

[rob]

I never clip my axe to my harness. I have a phobia about sharp objects attached to my groin. Plus, it just seems dumb. I've got enough shit on my harness. Plus, I'm not always wearing a harness when I'm using my axe.

 

However, I do use a wrist leash, made from thin (9/16'') webbing. True, a loose axe is deadly, but if I loose control of my axe I figure I'm fucked anyway. I keep a pretied loop near the axe head which is convenient for giving a quick carabiner/axe belay ("stomper" belay), which I prefer to a boot/axe belay -- just plant the axe, snap a biner into the loop and you're ready.

 

I keep the leash long enough so that I don't need to switch wrists at switchbacks, but short enough that I don't trip on it.

[spotly]

I keep mine on a leash that's just long enough to allow me to hold it at arms length. I figure my odds of falling AND losing control of the ax are less than my odds of losing an unleashed ax. As far as consequences, I'd guess tumbling down a slope with an ax flailing around would probably be worse than being stuck on said slope without the ax....depending on the situation

 

[ADDED] I've tried it on my wrist but prefer my harness or pack loop when not wearing a harness.

Edited February 20, 2008 by spotly

[robertjoy]

We can all agree that the worst scenario would be to lose your axe completely, and slide to your death. This can be avoided in two ways: 1. attach ax to harness with long cord, or 2. attach ax to wrist with strap. The downside with 1. is that if you lose control of the axe, it may bounce violently in facial proximity as you slide down the steepness, or 2. you must transfer the ax-strap from wrist to wrist as you zig-zag up a slope, both time consuming and potentially dangerous during the transfer. I routinely use the harness attachment, but sometimes windup the excess length and use as a wrist-strap for steepest sections.

[DavidHiers]

I usually clip my axe's prucell prusik to my harness. It adjusts all the way from cane to traction position. I figure that if I fall once, I'll probably fall again; the axe might come in handy.

 

Sometimes I unclip and girth the prusik to my wrist, its pretty situational.

[genepires]

I think the "loss of axe" concern is way overrated. In the many years I have spent tromping around with an axe in my hand, I have never lost control of the axe. (this includes tons of time spent practising self arrest) When something like a slip happens, there is a natural tendency to grip hard, hence not losing the axe.

Does anyone expect to be able to regain the axe after losing it while falling? No. The best thing is to either have control of the axe or get rid of it. The only way to regain control of the axe is by pulling it out of your eye socket when you are at the bottom of the hill.

Maybe if I was in some thin air enviroment where the brain is only working at 25% (unlike the normal 40%), then maybe a axe leash may be warranted. Fixed lines on w butt of denali is a good example of a appropriate place for an axe leash. But I would rather climb without a leash on the mtn tool (and be able to perform a leashless self arrest) and not risk a uncontrolled axe in the groin or face.

 

[Jens]

For mountaineering, it seems that some folks like the tether for high altitude stuff, but not for stuff down low.

 

Some great arguments have been made for both already.

-------------------

As for waterfall ice and mixed, quite simply leashes are aid.

Any European climber (expect those from the UK) will immediately relegate you to the status of "lame" if you are climbing with leashes, no matter how hard the route is that you are leading. It doesn't matter if you are 12 years old or 80 years old.

[eric8]

Sorry for the thread drift but Jens the last part of your statement is simply incorrect.

[DRep]

Sorry for the thread drift but Jens the last part of your statement is simply incorrect.

 

I'll second that. If you consider leashes aid, then wouldn't crampons and tools be aid as well?

Edited February 29, 2008 by dave repnik

[rob]

There are many reasons to go leashless. Being afraid of euros calling you "lame" is not one of them.

[ericb]

For mountaineering, it seems that some folks like the tether for high altitude stuff, but not for stuff down low.

 

Some great arguments have been made for both already.

-------------------

As for waterfall ice and mixed, quite simply leashes are aid.

Any European climber (expect those from the UK) will immediately relegate you to the status of "lame" if you are climbing with leashes, no matter how hard the route is that you are leading. It doesn't matter if you are 12 years old or 80 years old.

 

You will also get this designation ("lame") for using pickets in my experience

Edited March 1, 2008 by ericb

[Dane]

On a mountaineering axe I geneally have a wrist loop tied to the head of the axe. Never to the harness. But you are then forced to change hands on the leash depending on the uphill side. Not a big deal but you need to get used to it. The leash is there to support the wrist on any short bits of technical climbing. And if required support a self arrest. Leash works well on a short axe for that purpose.

 

Just to confuse the answer.

 

If there is anything over a just a tiny bit of technical climbing I'll also generally have a technical tool which will be leashless. Depending on the situation/length of the technical climb I'll also generally add umbilicals which are a mobil self belay as well as keeping the tools attached to me if dropped. They are clipped to the harness.

 

With a mountaineering axe if you fall and are unable to get stopped by a self arrest at least the axe is less likely to put other holes in you if tied to your wrist (which is more likely to be lost) than tied to your harness which will go the distance.

 

Trust me if you loose your axe in a fall and it is bouncing around tied to your body the axe will be the least of your worries. Add crampons to that mix and things can get really messy. Do what makes you comfortable and don't worry what the next guy thinks.

 

I've seen axes lost by some really good climbers in some really henious situations and some really stupid situations. I'm not so proud as to think I can't drop an axe at a really inappropriate moment. My rule is if the climb is over 100 meters high I generally have something physically attaching the axe to me, my pack or my harness, be it a wrist loop, leash or and umbilical. The set up is defined by the terrain.

[tvashtarkatena]

For mountaineering, it seems that some folks like the tether for high altitude stuff, but not for stuff down low.

 

Some great arguments have been made for both already.

-------------------

As for waterfall ice and mixed, quite simply leashes are aid.

Any European climber (expect those from the UK) will immediately relegate you to the status of "lame" if you are climbing with leashes, no matter how hard the route is that you are leading. It doesn't matter if you are 12 years old or 80 years old.

 

You will also get this designation ("lame") for using pickets in my experience

 

Especially if you try to use a picket as a leash.

[genepires]

And if required support a self arrest. Leash works well on a short axe for that purpose.

 

how does a leash support self arrest? There is a 50% chance that the leashed hand will be on the head of the axe, therefore useless. If the leashed hand is on the spike, most of the force held by the axe will be on the head end hand, which is bent and therefore stronger.

 

People tend to fall more on the descent and in warmer snow conditions. Steps fail and people are tired. Crampons are not usually on and not an issue in falls, usually.

 

If you fall, the out of control axe may be the least of your worries. But if it is a normal slope with a good run out, wouldn't you rather just slide to the bottom without having to pull the mtn axe out of your chest or eye? How often do average joe's casually walk above perilous slopes? If you are roped, what about the rest of the team to hold you?

 

Not bragging, just saying this to make a point. I have guided in the cascades for 8 years and I have never had a client drop an axe. These are the people who should be dropping everything but they manage to keep the mtn axe with them. Anyone who really thinks that they will lose their mtn axe should consider their frame of mind out there.