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vertical_hiker

Denali Expedition 2008 - Looking for 10-12 member

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There is no 'fiction' required or involved and I don't have to create strawmen. Sure, on the surface these sorts of folks look relatively benign, but you go to their website and it doesn't take long to find the fundamentalist core of them hard at work under the quise of "religious freedom" in Islamic nations. Exactly this kind of missionary activity has accompanied and been at the 'point of the spear' of the actual and cultural genocide of aboriginal peoples throughout the world that continues in full swing today despite the denial of comfortable white suburbanites. Today many of these folks view themselves as 'warriors' in a cultural war with Islam.

 

You need only look to indian reservations here in North America and see several centuries of genocide still hard at work in a 'mop up' operation that spans formal cultural, economic, and governmental programs. My own wife's tribe endured the most blatant and formal (Govt. and Christian co-managed) cultural genocide programs right through to the mid '70s as did aboriginal peoples across the US, Canada, and Australia. And very real genocide accompanies it as we speak in many parts of Latin America and Asia. Formalized and deliberate economic fraud and theft on the part of our Government associated with past and current indian treaty rights to the tune of $100 billion dollars is actively ongoing and well-documented by the judge in the Cobell v. Kempthorne case.

 

In the end, groups like this look benign, but that is only a function of naivete and a lack of familiarity with their more radical members and the overall missionary movement the belong to.

 

 

 

 

 

JH - using your logic, buddhism and shintoism are inherently violent religions...I mean, look at what the Japanese did to us at Pearl Harbor.....

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atrocities on and from both sides prevailed in the various occupations of Asian countries

 

how can a culture that sells new-age books and songs about how no one owns the land sue anyone for stealing their land?

 

the history of all mankind, regardless of faith or lack thereof, is summed up:

 

a group of people kicks another group of peoples' asses, then rapes all their women, castrates their men, puts the children in slavery, loots all the natural resources, rewrites history to make themselves look cool, then gets fat and lazy and gets their asses kicked by a group of people who rapes...

 

 

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The history of religion is clearly marred by human desire and judgemental tendencies. Religion is dangerous. Good people get lead down a road they would not otherwise have followed.

Christianity is no stranger to these abuses. It may be amoung the worst.

But the foundations of the teachings of the founder are clear, put love first, follow your heart and use the Bible secondarily. The Pharisees were thrown out of the temple for violating this concept.

As for the specifics of the abusive tactics of missionaries to aboriginal peoples, they will meet an angry God some day.

Joseph sounds militant to be sure. His wife's people have seen some of the worst abuses of Christian religion imaginable. It does not take much time spent amoung traditional practitoners of Native American traditions to get an idea of how painful it has been to be a victim of Christianty.

As modern Christians, we have a huge deficit of wrong doings to overcome both in perception and action. A quiet and steady, no-judgmental approach seems appropriate. A rousing worship session at camp 14K would piss me off. I was raised atheist and came to "beleive" in the mountains amoung the sounds of nature. I still go there to revitalize. I do not need religion to do so and I would hope this would be respected. Otherwise, this trip sounds like a good idea.

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The history of religion is clearly marred by human desire and judgemental tendencies. Religion is dangerous. Good people get lead down a road they would not otherwise have followed.

Christianity is no stranger to these abuses. It may be amoung the worst.

But the foundations of the teachings of the founder are clear, put love first, follow your heart and use the Bible secondarily. The Pharisees were thrown out of the temple for violating this concept.

As for the specifics of the abusive tactics of missionaries to aboriginal peoples, they will meet an angry God some day.

Joseph sounds militant to be sure. His wife's people have seen some of the worst abuses of Christian religion imaginable. It does not take much time spent amoung traditional practitoners of Native American traditions to get an idea of how painful it has been to be a victim of Christianty.

As modern Christians, we have a huge deficit of wrong doings to overcome both in perception and action. A quiet and steady, no-judgmental approach seems appropriate. A rousing worship session at camp 14K would piss me off. I was raised atheist and came to "beleive" in the mountains amoung the sounds of nature. I still go there to revitalize. I do not need religion to do so and I would hope this would be respected. Otherwise, this trip sounds like a good idea.

 

Bug - I'm not familiar with how the historical abuses of the Native American Tribes have been attributed specifically to Christian activities vs. US Government activities....can you please clarify what you are referring to here?

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Here's some good advice to take with you, from the Sermon on the CC.Com Mount (Matthew 6:5-6)...

 

And when you spray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to spray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you spray, go into your room [or tent], close the door and spray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

:noway:

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The history of religion is clearly marred by human desire and judgemental tendencies. Religion is dangerous. Good people get lead down a road they would not otherwise have followed.

Christianity is no stranger to these abuses. It may be amoung the worst.

But the foundations of the teachings of the founder are clear, put love first, follow your heart and use the Bible secondarily. The Pharisees were thrown out of the temple for violating this concept.

As for the specifics of the abusive tactics of missionaries to aboriginal peoples, they will meet an angry God some day.

Joseph sounds militant to be sure. His wife's people have seen some of the worst abuses of Christian religion imaginable. It does not take much time spent amoung traditional practitoners of Native American traditions to get an idea of how painful it has been to be a victim of Christianty.

As modern Christians, we have a huge deficit of wrong doings to overcome both in perception and action. A quiet and steady, no-judgmental approach seems appropriate. A rousing worship session at camp 14K would piss me off. I was raised atheist and came to "beleive" in the mountains amoung the sounds of nature. I still go there to revitalize. I do not need religion to do so and I would hope this would be respected. Otherwise, this trip sounds like a good idea.

 

Bug - I'm not familiar with how the historical abuses of the Native American Tribes have been attributed specifically to Christian activities vs. US Government activities....can you please clarify what you are referring to here?

Google Carlisle Boarding Schools

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I guess I believe in god and shit. In terms of reading one of my favorite books is Dante's Divine Comedy Vol 1 Inferno. I mean traveling through hell; that's some rad shit. Purgatory was kind of cool too; but once Dante gets to Heaven :sleep: that sounds like a dull spot.

 

Right now I'm curious on the short modern list of who's going to hell, and more importantly what kind of torture they can expect. Lucifer must have updated the various circles of hell don't you think. Can you update us vertical hiker?

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Indians were labeled "Savages" and dehumanized making it "OK" to commit genocide. "Conversion" to a missionary of the time meant "giving up the heathen practices" of their ancestors, symbolically represented by giving up their dress and language and especiall their religious traditions which were prohibited by US law until the Native Amercan Religious Freedom act was passed in 1976. That is not a typo, 1976.

"Conversion" to a Blackfeet for instance was accepting that Christians had been directed by God to practice the same rituals and Morals as the Blackfeet ancestors. Souix had similar beleifs.

In my research during the time I spent studying NA traditions at the UofM I did not find one Christian who had learned the language and traditions of a NA tribe not one Native American who had studied Christianity, who thought they were different religions. For examle, after over 30 years of living with Navajo, Father Bernard Hale was asked how many Navajo he had converted to CHristianity. He paused and thought for awhile then replied, "Maybe one. But I don't think so." To this day, his writings are amoung someof the best ethnographic works on the Navajo.

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I guess I believe in god and shit. In terms of reading one of my favorite books is Dante's Divine Comedy Vol 1 Inferno. I mean traveling through hell; that's some rad shit. Purgatory was kind of cool too; but once Dante gets to Heaven :sleep: that sounds like a dull spot.

 

Right now I'm curious on the short modern list of who's going to hell, and more importantly what kind of torture they can expect. Lucifer must have updated the various circles of hell don't you think. Can you update us vertical hiker?

Perhaps Hell is reliving every moment of your life in intricate detail, over and over, for eternity.

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as for the guitar on the busy west buttress, I agree with the guy above, if you want peace and quiet, West Buttress is probably not the best place for it. Also, with the fact that I'm not amped to a 50/100 watt marshall stack with a custom les paul gibson, it's more like a mandolin that barely produces any decibels enough to play within our tent. I also don't like people playing guitar and singing because usually they are not good. I know what you're talking about. For us, I don't see any harm with what we did last year. We're sensitive to our surroundings, and have respectable amount of social skills. All our friends we met up the hill were camped around us, and they were cool.

 

Besides, the guy who skied down naked from 16k to 14k camp, the loud conversations around the tents about balls and things freezing, which was actually quite entertaining, the guy who took the wrong pills and was flighted off in a coma with a helicopter, people walking around talking on their satellite phones, others asking for hot cocoa or fuel (and we gave them), some walking to the local craphole and telling of their experience of it, etc., is not the ideal place for peace and quiet. If anything, you hear us, or anybody too loud, have the balls to say bring it down.

 

 

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Indians were labeled "Savages" and dehumanized

 

yeah, they did absolutely nothing that could be labeled "savage" after all. They were innocent angels. Warfare with neighboring tribes, enslavement of the women and children, brutal practices such as scalping, dismemberment (to avoid escape) and human sacrifice, raiding settlements, thievery - all fantasies that never occurred. :rolleyes:

 

Gotta love the bullshit history revisionist, white self-hate. :tdown:

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You used half the words and jumped to twice as many conclusions as JH.

You are the master.

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Right now I'm curious on the short modern list of who's going to hell, and more importantly what kind of torture they can expect. Lucifer must have updated the various circles of hell don't you think. Can you update us vertical hiker?

 

The Christian Bible teaches we all were made in God’s image, and were made to be with God. As God’s created beings our greatest joy is to be with God and our worst torture is to be separated from God.

So we have two natures, the spiritual and the physical. What kind of joy or torture we can expect in our spiritual life after the passing of our physical is beyond our physical nature to fully understand.

 

 

Edited by sirwoofalot

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Indians were labeled "Savages" and dehumanized making it "OK" to commit genocide. "Conversion" to a missionary of the time meant "giving up the heathen practices" of their ancestors, symbolically represented by giving up their dress and language and especiall their religious traditions which were prohibited by US law until the Native Amercan Religious Freedom act was passed in 1976. That is not a typo, 1976.

"Conversion" to a Blackfeet for instance was accepting that Christians had been directed by God to practice the same rituals and Morals as the Blackfeet ancestors. Souix had similar beleifs.

In my research during the time I spent studying NA traditions at the UofM I did not find one Christian who had learned the language and traditions of a NA tribe not one Native American who had studied Christianity, who thought they were different religions. For examle, after over 30 years of living with Navajo, Father Bernard Hale was asked how many Navajo he had converted to CHristianity. He paused and thought for awhile then replied, "Maybe one. But I don't think so." To this day, his writings are amoung someof the best ethnographic works on the Navajo.

 

Bug - I don't see a connection between the disparate thoughts here and the current state of the Native American peoples. Was the genocide committed by Christian Missionaries? How much of the land taken from the tribes is being used to grow corn for ethanol, wind-farms, etc. Are the Democrats who are pushing for alternative fuel sources really to blame rather than Christians?

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Right now I'm curious on the short modern list of who's going to hell, and more importantly what kind of torture they can expect. Lucifer must have updated the various circles of hell don't you think. Can you update us vertical hiker?

 

The Christian Bible teaches we all were made in God’s image, and were made to be with God. As God’s created beings our greatest joy is to be with God and our worst torture is to be separated from God.

So we have two natures, the spiritual and the physical. What kind of joy or torture we can expect in our spiritual life after the passing of our physical is beyond our physical nature to understand.

 

 

Dante wouldn't agree with you. He had it all figured out for his age.

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....My tentmate lies comatose; he rises only to squirt what little diarrhea he can muster from his wasted form. And all the while, in the distance, the strum of a 12 string guitar coaxes forth yet another verse of "Kumbaya, My Lord, Kumbaya...."

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if the song was "I've got a river of life flowin out of me....."

 

bha ha ha!

That was funny!

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Bug - I don't see a connection between the disparate thoughts here and the current state of the Native American peoples. Was the genocide committed by Christian Missionaries?

Yes in many cases.

How much of the land taken from the tribes is being used to grow corn for ethanol, wind-farms, etc. Are the Democrats who are pushing for alternative fuel sources really to blame rather than Christians?

Yur right. That is disparate.

 

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One of us obviously needs to clue in Huckabee that you won't be voting for him.....

 

Probably Mitt as well from the sounds of it....

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