Which is more dangerous?

[G-spotter]

No fear of that ever happening, John

Dangerous

[John Frieh]

[billcoe]

[ Note 2: Ivan is a paradoxical maniac - his thoughts on this subject are simultaneously both wise and suspect.]

 

 

Wisely spoken all the way through JH.

____________________________________________________________

 

John: I heard a post children survey of parents had 77% of them NOT choosing to have children again if they could do it over.

 

And they were non-climbers...wonder what those numbers would look like with this group?

[ivan]

[ Note 2: Ivan is a paradoxical maniac - his thoughts on this subject are simultaneously both wise and suspect.]

 

is j evans pritchard telling me how best to appreciate poetry?

 

the surest chance my kids have of living a normal life is to have some fat tournon run me over in the beacon parking lot!

[Bug]

Having kids was the best thing I've done hands down.

Having said that, here is some wisdom for you; "Marry whoever the hell you want. Just be damn careful who you have kids with."

 

[Bug]

To elaborate, I used to be a pretty damn good climber but "I" chose a different path once the kids came into the picture. My now X-wife was totally freaked out about me climbing and would go so far as to deny sex for days after my return. THIS IS A TRUE STORY!!! So, I scaled back my climbing more and more and resented her more and more.

Here is my rationalization for resenting her and eventually divorcing her. She is a controlling bitch.

OK, more elaboration. I get all the points above and heartily disagree with your solutions. Getting out in the mountains has been the single biggest part of my life since I was 3 or 4 years old. Anyone who knows me for longer than 14 minutes will figure this out. SO why didn't my X figure this out before getting married? A woman marries a man thinking he will change. He does not. In my case, I would sooner donate my testicles to the Catholic church.

The less I got out, the less "in tune" I was to my surroundings. This led to many near misses that I normally would have avoided. Weather is an unknown? I don't think so. If you pull your pants down in a crowded room you are going to get caught with your pants down. Same for not having the right gear in the mountains.

Caught by a lightning storm? Let me guess, between 2 and 4PM right?

And so forth.

Life is inherently dangerous. I know a 12 yr old who was accosted by a pedofile in her driveway (no asshole, it wasn't me). How many of us know someone who died on a freeway?

Did I think more about it when my kids came around? Yes. Did I get beat by a big stick in the hands of my wife? Yes.

Which had the most effect, climbing or the stick?

I climbed way more safely when I got out regularly than I do now.

Just ask EricB.

[iciclespyder]

Mountaineering, or more specifically snow and ice climbing/skiing, is much dangerous then rock climbing. Even though an alpine climber spends more time on the crags then in the alpine, numerous friends have died in the mountains, but none of them have died while rock climbing. Of course, that’s just my individual experience.

 

I have stopped alpine climbing, not because of the danger, but its so damn cold at the belays.

 

 

[ivan]

Here is my rationalization for resenting her and eventually divorcing her. She is a controlling bitch.

it felt good to gut-laugh at the end of 6th period!

[Bug]

I'm glad one of us can laugh about it.

[ivan]

I'm glad one of us can laugh about it.

i have to laugh b/c it's so damn close to happening to me!

[builder206]

Having kids was the best thing I've done hands down.

 

You've been divorced? Wouldn't "hands up" be more like it?

[JosephH]

I get all the points above and heartily disagree with your solutions.

 

I think Bill was proposing a solution that worked for him and was offering it up as advice to someone who asked. I don't think there's inherently any big disagreement here - only individual choices based on one's domestic circumstance and personal makeup and outlook on life.

 

I know lots of climbers who don't climb alpine due to the preponderance of objective risks - me for example, and dozens of folks I know. Some of those folks (not me) are world class rock climbers and were world class alpinists who simply decided that - for them - the risks just weren't worth the reward. Some of them made that decision based on having had children, but just as many, myself included, made that call for ourselves long before a spouse and children arrived on the scene.

 

This is definitely a case of to each his or her own - one size does not fit all...

 

[Bug]

I'm glad one of us can laugh about it.

i have to laugh b/c it's so damn close to happening to me!

 

RUN BOY! RUN!

[Bug]

Yo Joseph, I can disagree without criticising.

Builder206, do you want her phone number? She's quite comfortable.

[JosephH]

Yo Joseph, I can disagree without criticising.

 

Bug, I wasn't thinking you were criticising so much as wanting to say I'm not sure it's even possible to 'disagree' in as much as noone's personal decision really impacts another. 'Solutions' may be different, but they're all perfectly appropriate, at least to the person who makes them.

[RuMR]

hmmm

 

What Rad says certainly strikes a cord. Jim Anglin passed away 2 weeks ago by falling off of the descent trail. Not on a burley dangerous climb, of which he had FA's on many. I was with another well known Oregon Climbing pioneer whom almost died after slipping on the mud at the Butte at the bottom of the easy downclimb by Blackberry jam (he had finished the downclimb and was standing on the wet dirt when he slipped, several surgeries and 4 weeks or so in the hospital...).

 

My statement on the other thread was for me: and I see many other parents putting it way out there further than I want too on a regular basis. Here's a reworked version.

 

Originally Posted By: Stick

I appreciate your comments and concern.

To the ones who commented on the risks they take climbing and not wanting to put there kids into the situation, if its such a dangerous activity why would you risk leaving your kids to grow up without a father should you be killed climbing?

.......

 

 

Speaking only for myself, it was considered and acted on.

 

I had summited Hood well over 30 times before my (now 21 year old) daughter was born.

 

I have not been there to climb except once since, (COUGH*outofshape*COUGH*fatbastard*COUGH) and that was only to fulfill a guide contract for a friend. We got off the summit 20 min before a major lightning storm hit. We stopped below the cloudcap and started back up when it passed to go help some highly skilled, highly experienced, very savvy Portland Mt. Rescue folks who were still going up as we were going down. They were fine as it turned out, but not by much. Proving you can be the very best Mt climber in the world and end up dead. I can name some names and circumstances if you would like.

 

The loudness of a lighting strike near you is not something you can communicate on a computer. An unexpected avalanche, crevasse bridge collapse or humoungous rock whizzing right by your head can be equally shocking.

 

As far as answering your first question, I bumped my life insurance and stopped what I consider the high risk things. I don't do the mountains and ice. Stopped drugs and toned down the partying. I do not ride a motorcycle now as well, although my wife does: go figure eh?

 

Kids made a huge impact on us both, yet we draw our own lines, with our eyes wide open knowing both the risks and the consequences.

 

I still rock climb, which I consider a lower risk activity. I do not make judgments for or about others who still climb ice or Mt's and have children, this is my choice. They make their own choices. I understand those parents still mountain climbing, I sometimes ache to run up Rainer or jump on the ice in the gorge when it hits, but I can easily get a quick pump in the rock gym, where it's warm and safe all winter, and spend the evening with my family, which makes it worth writing off the mts. As a family we do things together as well. A hike up dog mountain gets talked about for months, and your son would most likely love doing that with you as well. He doesn't give a shit about Mt Hood, he wants to be with you.

 

You came on the board asking advice, and got good advice in my opinion. These guys have seen people come on this board asking advice whom later wound up dead in what some would say is a tragedy. It is something these cascadeclimber folks take seriously (generally).

 

My dad died when I was 18 months old, due to no fault of his own, I take my responsibility as a parent pretty seriously, it is my prime job, and all else is secondary. But, I can see a time - where we kick the lil boy out soon as he's 17 now, where this will be changing. My son and I have gotten season passes the last 2 years, and it's pretty safe (and fun) to burn some fast runs at Meadows all winter. Great fun. So I'm ON the Mt, but not really ON the Mt. in a serious way. If the weather turns we head for the bar and a couple of hot buttered rums, and the lad has a hot chocolate and then drives me home while we discuss the highlight reel of the days events: prime jumps, runs where dad got left in the dust, major crashes, turns missed, etc etc :-) Sweet deal!

 

Good luck with whatever you choose. I feel you have already taken a very responsible and intelligent path gathering as much info BEFORE you jumped in, something not everyone does. Your son is lucky to have such a committed and caring parent.

 

Regards;

 

Bill

 

ps, read this trip report of Ivans day on the Mt. Keep in the back of your mind as your read this that this horror show was during great weather in PDX today.

I'm sure sky, assworked and pandora can attest to how "shocking" rockfall at a local cragging area can be and i damn near saw the three of them bite it. O'course, i almost got into a head on collision due to some fuck head on the way to that very same cliff a couple of weeks earlier...so, really, which one is it?

 

Our time is in the stars, literally, and there ain't squat you can do about it so you might as well enjoy it, come hell or high water.

 

We perceive time moving only forward, but other observers/observations are actually looking back on us. Your time is marked, like it or not...die climbing, die in a car accident, die in war, etc. we all die and we don't determine when it happens...

[RuMR]

To elaborate, I used to be a pretty damn good climber but "I" chose a different path once the kids came into the picture. My now X-wife was totally freaked out about me climbing and would go so far as to deny sex for days after my return. THIS IS A TRUE STORY!!! So, I scaled back my climbing more and more and resented her more and more.

Here is my rationalization for resenting her and eventually divorcing her. She is a controlling bitch.

OK, more elaboration. I get all the points above and heartily disagree with your solutions. Getting out in the mountains has been the single biggest part of my life since I was 3 or 4 years old. Anyone who knows me for longer than 14 minutes will figure this out. SO why didn't my X figure this out before getting married? A woman marries a man thinking he will change. He does not. In my case, I would sooner donate my testicles to the Catholic church.

The less I got out, the less "in tune" I was to my surroundings. This led to many near misses that I normally would have avoided. Weather is an unknown? I don't think so. If you pull your pants down in a crowded room you are going to get caught with your pants down. Same for not having the right gear in the mountains.

Caught by a lightning storm? Let me guess, between 2 and 4PM right?

And so forth.

Life is inherently dangerous. I know a 12 yr old who was accosted by a pedofile in her driveway (no asshole, it wasn't me). How many of us know someone who died on a freeway?

Did I think more about it when my kids came around? Yes. Did I get beat by a big stick in the hands of my wife? Yes.

Which had the most effect, climbing or the stick?

I climbed way more safely when I got out regularly than I do now.

Just ask EricB.

 

Quit playin and you die...end o' story..

[K^2]

To elaborate, I used to be a pretty damn good climber but "I" chose a different path once the kids came into the picture. My now X-wife was totally freaked out about me climbing and would go so far as to deny sex for days after my return. THIS IS A TRUE STORY!!! So, I scaled back my climbing more and more and resented her more and more.

Here is my rationalization for resenting her and eventually divorcing her. She is a controlling bitch.

OK, more elaboration. I get all the points above and heartily disagree with your solutions. Getting out in the mountains has been the single biggest part of my life since I was 3 or 4 years old. Anyone who knows me for longer than 14 minutes will figure this out. SO why didn't my X figure this out before getting married? A woman marries a man thinking he will change. He does not. In my case, I would sooner donate my testicles to the Catholic church.

The less I got out, the less "in tune" I was to my surroundings. This led to many near misses that I normally would have avoided. Weather is an unknown? I don't think so. If you pull your pants down in a crowded room you are going to get caught with your pants down. Same for not having the right gear in the mountains.

Caught by a lightning storm? Let me guess, between 2 and 4PM right?

And so forth.

Life is inherently dangerous. I know a 12 yr old who was accosted by a pedofile in her driveway (no asshole, it wasn't me). How many of us know someone who died on a freeway?

Did I think more about it when my kids came around? Yes. Did I get beat by a big stick in the hands of my wife? Yes.

Which had the most effect, climbing or the stick?

I climbed way more safely when I got out regularly than I do now.

Just ask EricB.

 

Quit playin and you die...end o' story..

 

If yer gonna die, die with your boots on.

[JayB]

I like Joseph's notion of thinking about these things in terms of a dynamic personal "risk quotient," in addition to objective risks.

 

One of the things that I've noticed amongst most of the folks that are still getting after it in some fashion or another after being in whatever game their involved in for quite some time is that they bring a certain amount of self-knowledge and humility to the decision making process, and are often brutally honest with themselves when it comes to evaluating which objectives are suitable and present acceptable levels of risk in terms of their *present* levels of skill, fitness, training.

 

I also think that if you are evaluating new partners, getting a handle on where they are in terms of their "risk quotient" is worthwhile.

[Bug]

Climb hard.

Have sex often.

[kevbone]

Love many guitars.......love one woman......love many crags.....love one woman.

[RuMR]

wow...you come up with that little witty ditty all by your lonesome?

[JosephH]

Kevin - I'm not sure how well that 'one woman' deal squares with the history of guitars or crags (and I don't think John Frieh is buying it for a second). It works for me now, but only after many tries and having gotten a late start. It certainly is the 'most dangerous' of the three activities you mention, though.

[markwebster]

My wife and I, both still climbers, have two kids, 22 and 19 who both climb. Sue and I gave up mountain climbing 5 years before we had kids because of too many close calls. We were slow in the mountains, belaying things that faster climbers would free solo. We would watch them solo by us and wonder if they put less value on life, or were simply that much more sure footed.

 

We had a few friends die in the mountains, both in the Himalayas and around here. We put that together with our own close calls and decided rock climbing had less variables. You aren't 7 miles from the car, and you are unlikely to get caught in a snowstorm 6000 feet up a mountain in the dark...all of which we survived...barely.

 

Rockclimbing is still quite dangerous compared to watching tv, but we pick our poisons and I choose not to live without something that makes me happy, knowing full well that it may kill me prematurely some day. But, then, driving cars kills 40,000 people a year and we all still drive.

 

When I first held Clint in my arms at the hospital, I could have cared less about climbing ever again. But...a few weeks later, I needed my adrenaline fix and found a way to have my cake and eat it too. We brought our 5 week old to the cliff.

 

Being a good parent is all about being there for them, guiding them along, and making them feel secure. They don't need you there every second, so striking a balance between still having fun, and being there for them seems to be the key.

 

When I read about all those Himalayan climbers who bite it over there, even knowing the odds ahead of time, and then people talk about what great parents they were....no, they chose to make climbing more important than parenting.

 

There has to be a balance between having fun and parenting, or your kids well pay the price. For those of you who decide never to have kids, you are missing one of the best parts of life. You can do both, just keep things in balance.

 

Besides, if you do it right, they make great partners!

[RuMR]

:tup: