Hypocrisy

[catbirdseat]

So, it should be O.K. to murder whoever is inconvenient in your life, eh?

 

You're presupposing that abortion is equivalent to murder - not everyone agrees with that position.

It's only murder if you kill a person. Killing a non-person is not murder. When is a fetus a person? People will never agree on this. I say a person is a person when it can live on its own outside the womb. Others say at the time of conception.

 

What makes humans persons and not animals? Our brains, that's what, not the fact that we walk on two legs. The same standard should be applied to abortion.

 

I believe the more time and money invested in raising a child, the greater the value of that child is to society. By the time our children are 18, we've invested a great deal in them, in their education.

 

And what do we do with them then? We ship them off to Iraq to use as cannon fodder.

Edited October 2, 2007 by catbirdseat

[pope]

Our brains? Let's suppose an elderly family member is functionally a vegetable. Can't add 2+2 and completely depends on you for care. Not terribly different than a fetus or recently born baby. Are they less human because they can't do calculus? Should they have to pass some kind of I.Q. evaluation before they are protected by law?

[Raindawg]

It's only murder if you kill a person. Killing a non-person is not murder. When is a fetus a person? People will never agree on this. I say a person is a person when it can live on its own outside the womb. Others say at the time of conception.

 

What makes humans persons and not animals? Our brains, that's what, not the fact that we walk on two legs. The same standard should be applied to abortion.

 

Whatever, cathead. I used to believe that "pro-choice" stuff until my wife and I lost a pregnancy and then we closely monitored the next, including ultrasounds that confirmed to us the humanity of a very young developing human. Here are a few insights (this is borrowed from a web-site...I won't mention from where as it will only dilute the discussion):

 

When Does Human Life Begin?

 

Some people say human life begins at conception.

 

Others insist the human fetus becomes a person at birth, or even at some time after birth.

 

Still others point to a time in the middle, the twentieth week of gestation, because at that point a baby is viable - can live outside the womb.

 

WHO IS RIGHT? The question is important when thinking about abortion.

 

 

Five signs of life in the womb:

 

1. Heartbeat

 

Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat eighteen days after conception.

That is only four days after most women miss a period and begin to suspect they are pregnant.

 

Most abortions are not performed until the eighth week (56 days) of a pregnancy, or a little later.

 

2. Brain waves

 

Six weeks after conception signals from the fetal brain can be detected.

Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

 

Perhaps more advanced technology will someday show us heartbeats and brain waves at even earlier stages in the unborn child's life.

 

3. Independent movement

 

At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: Kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching.

This is long before the mother will feel any sensations of movement.

 

4. Senses

A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week.

A child at that age will move away from painful stimuli, the most painful of which would be the abortionist's instrument.

 

5. Breathing

By about the fourteenth week, a baby's lungs are functioning and he or she will practice breathing.

 

 

 

What does an abortion do?

Abortion ends a human life.

 

Some say that an abortion is nothing more than the "termination of a pregnancy;" that what is aborted is only a "blob of tissue" or a "mass of cells." An early abortion will produce what appears to be a "blob of tissue," but what would you expect the shredded remains of a tiny unborn baby to look like?

 

Most abortions are performed after the eighth week of pregnancy which is beyond the point when the child exhibits many signs of life, but before the time when cartilage has given way to real bone (by the end of the sixth month). Later abortions produce fully recognizable body parts or even whole, fully formed babies.

 

P.S.

And what do we do with them then? We ship them off to Iraq to use as cannon fodder.

 

Cannons are rarely used on our VOLUNTEER army by the enemy in Iraq....you must have been watching that Ken Burns WWII program which is full of that kind of lingo.

 

 

 

[Dechristo]

It's only murder if you kill a person. Killing a non-person is not murder. When is a fetus a person? People will never agree on this. I say a person is a person when it can live on its own outside the womb.

I doubt a typical child as old as 30 months could "live on its own outside the womb"; older in many climates. This statement gives approval of the killing of toddlers.

Full-term newborns are no less dependent on the help of others than many "premies" as young as six months.

 

 

 

What makes humans persons and not animals? Our brains, that's what, not the fact that we walk on two legs. The same standard should be applied to abortion.

A developmental model. What makes those with developmental disorders outside the womb any less susceptible to this judgment? By this criteria, with many of the advances in en utero detection, we won't need to deal with those people much longer. Sounds like a rational for the eradication of all not measuring up to an acceptable standard model. This kind of thinking leads to an idea which was executed extensively in northern Europe just before the middle of the twentieth century.

 

 

I believe the more time and money invested in raising a child, the greater the value of that child is to society. By the time our children are 18, we've invested a great deal in them, in their education.

Again, with developmental value basis, but further along with establishing gradations of value. Clearly, by your appraisal, the older the child, the more valuable. I'm starting to understand the reasoning behind using young children to "clear out" mine fields to save older troops and the redemption of young children in martyrdom as suicide bombers.

 

By your statements, it's hard to understand that you are a parent. C'mon, CBS. You must be more sensible and humane than this. If you're serious, you're exhibiting a scary level of shallow, or callous.

 

Personally, I've been on both ends of the abortion argument. These days, I choose not to judge this issue with blanket pronouncement. If I were allowed to vote on the issue (say, if the Feds allowed a State by State determination), I would consider and decide (vote) based on the wording of the proposal. Since the Supreme Court decision does not allow for this scenario, I'm at peace in acceptance.

 

Btw, If I remember correctly, the majority of the Supreme Court discussion on this issue in Roe v. Wade was in the opinion and determination of when "potential life" existed.

 

 

[kevbone]

It's only murder if you kill a person. Killing a non-person is not murder. When is a fetus a person? People will never agree on this. I say a person is a person when it can live on its own outside the womb. Others say at the time of conception.

 

What makes humans persons and not animals? Our brains, that's what, not the fact that we walk on two legs. The same standard should be applied to abortion.

 

Whatever, cathead. I used to believe that "pro-choice" stuff until my wife and I lost a pregnancy and then we closely monitored the next, including ultrasounds that confirmed to us the humanity of a very young developing human. Here are a few insights (this is borrowed from a web-site...I won't mention from where as it will only dilute the discussion):

 

When Does Human Life Begin?

 

Some people say human life begins at conception.

 

Others insist the human fetus becomes a person at birth, or even at some time after birth.

 

Still others point to a time in the middle, the twentieth week of gestation, because at that point a baby is viable - can live outside the womb.

 

WHO IS RIGHT? The question is important when thinking about abortion.

 

 

Five signs of life in the womb:

 

1. Heartbeat

 

Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat eighteen days after conception.

That is only four days after most women miss a period and begin to suspect they are pregnant.

 

Most abortions are not performed until the eighth week (56 days) of a pregnancy, or a little later.

 

2. Brain waves

 

Six weeks after conception signals from the fetal brain can be detected.

Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

 

Perhaps more advanced technology will someday show us heartbeats and brain waves at even earlier stages in the unborn child's life.

 

3. Independent movement

 

At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: Kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching.

This is long before the mother will feel any sensations of movement.

 

4. Senses

A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week.

A child at that age will move away from painful stimuli, the most painful of which would be the abortionist's instrument.

 

5. Breathing

By about the fourteenth week, a baby's lungs are functioning and he or she will practice breathing.

 

 

 

What does an abortion do?

Abortion ends a human life.

 

Some say that an abortion is nothing more than the "termination of a pregnancy;" that what is aborted is only a "blob of tissue" or a "mass of cells." An early abortion will produce what appears to be a "blob of tissue," but what would you expect the shredded remains of a tiny unborn baby to look like?

 

Most abortions are performed after the eighth week of pregnancy which is beyond the point when the child exhibits many signs of life, but before the time when cartilage has given way to real bone (by the end of the sixth month). Later abortions produce fully recognizable body parts or even whole, fully formed babies.

 

P.S.

And what do we do with them then? We ship them off to Iraq to use as cannon fodder.

 

Cannons are rarely used on our VOLUNTEER army by the enemy in Iraq....you must have been watching that Ken Burns WWII program which is full of that kind of lingo.

 

 

 

 

Raindawg……I do enjoy reading your posts….

 

Its quite simple…..you do not believe in abortion…..I would never ask a woman to get an abortion…..the difference between you and I is, I would never FORCE or legislate my opinion on you.

 

If you don’t want to pay for sex……then don’t

If you don’t want to use heroin……..then don’t.

If you don’t want to have an abortion……then don’t

 

But F U for trying to force your opinion on me.

 

I do think you are KILLING the unborn fetus……so what…..it is the choice of the mother…..not for you to make the choice for her.

 

Sorry to hear you lost a pregnancy…….I can’t even try to know what that was like.

 

I am a father for the first time. That does not change my view on abortion.

 

I am pro life and pro choice. It is possible.

 

[Couloir]

It's important to keep the terms straight. If you want it, then it's a baby. If you don't, then it's a fetus.

[Mal_Con]

It is a fetus until it is born alive at which point it becomes a baby.

[Raindawg]

But F U for trying to force your opinion on me.

 

First of all...people might respect you more if you'd knock it off with the F U and such.

 

Secondly, how is my opinion FORCED on you? Discussions typically involve opinions. If you can't handle opinions, don't initiate a discussion or. remove yourself from the conversations. Nothing has been FORCED upon you.

 

I do think you are KILLING the unborn fetus……so what…..it is the choice of the mother…..not for you to make the choice for her.

 

I'm impressed about the extraordinary powers you must think I have to arbitrarily create and enact binding legislation. Sorry to disappoint you pal, but in a democracy, if enough people agree, it can become the law....and if enough people agree that killing a developing baby is murder, than there you have it. Even from a libertarian viewpoint, there are standards for unacceptable conduct such as murder. Call it a "fetus" if you like...it's still a developing human...and aren't we all.

 

If you prefer anarchy, then I suppose you can murder whoever you like and be subject to the same.

 

 

you are KILLING the unborn fetus……so what

 

You being a proud father, I am surprised at your attitude. Think of your life now had you and/or your wife made the abortion choice.

 

[kevbone]

First of all...people might respect you more if you'd knock it off with the F U and such.

 

I am not looking for respect…..so; shouldn’t you be glad I used the F U instead of actually spelling it out? That’s how I feel.

 

 

 

Secondly, how is my opinion FORCED on you? Discussions typically involve opinions. If you can't handle opinions, don't initiate a discussion or. remove yourself from the conversations. Nothing has been FORCED upon you.

 

Are you for making abortions illegal?

 

If you answer yes to this…..then you are indirectly forcing your opinion on me. If you answer no……please accept my apologies.

 

 

I'm impressed about the extraordinary powers you must think I have to arbitrarily create and enact binding legislation.

 

Do I have to spell it out for you? Ever heard of voting?

 

 

As a proud father, I am surprised at your attitude. Think of your life now had you made the abortion choice.

 

Why would I do that? It was never in my mind to abort. We wanted him from the beginning. It’s all about choice friend. When the wrong people take control (aka bush) then our choices get smaller and smaller…..until they are making choices for us.

 

[ClimbingPanther]

kev, the whole "forcing your opinion" thing is a crock and everyone knows it. there are certain things we give the government the responsibility to do, such as protect our ...ahem... right to ...ahem... life. that's why the government, like, forces stuff on us like, don't murder people, and stuff. the role of government is to protect these rights from people who want to take them away. from the moment you depart from complete and total anarchy, somebody's "opinion" is being "forced" on another, but it's for the good of the values of freedom this country was founded on.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

kev, the whole "forcing your opinion" thing is a crock and everyone knows it. there are certain things we give the government the responsibility to do, such as protect our ...ahem... right to ...ahem... life. that's why the government, like, forces stuff on us like, don't murder people, and stuff. the role of government is to protect these rights from people who want to take them away. from the moment you depart from complete and total anarchy, somebody's "opinion" is being "forced" on another, but it's for the good of the values of freedom this country was founded on.

 

Kevbonie, like many who toot this song about "forcing beliefs" just doesn't like to hear an opinion that makes him feel uncomfortable and challenges his morality. Did someone rip open your thin cocoon of warm-fuzzy-feeling, Kevie? Too damn bad. I for one am not "forcing" anything on you Kevie, just asking those tough questions which seem to make you squirm.

 

[kevbone]

that's why the government, like, forces stuff on us like, don't murder people, and stuff.

 

That is a crock…..ever heard of Iraq?

 

the role of government is to protect these rights from people who want to take them away

 

I agree…..currently it is our right to have an abortion……thank god we have our government to protect me from people who want to take that right away…..

 

[Stefan]

You being a proud father, I am surprised at your attitude. Think of your life now had you and/or your wife made the abortion choice.

 

I will weigh in.

 

I prescribe to the philosophy believing most people are good and make rationally correct decisions for themselves and for their communities most of the time.

 

If I go with that philosophy then it must mean I trust others that the decision to have an abortion is the correct decision most of the time.

[ClimbingPanther]

when laws are passed to "protect us from ourselves" or remove the right to do something that has no effect on another's rights, then the government has taken advantage of the power we bestow it. like the idea of restricting climbing on Hood. and motorcycle helmets. and homosexuality. and religion. and stores' stocking choices. and a business' smoking policy. and so forth.

[kevbone]

Kevbonie, like many who toot this song about "forcing beliefs" just doesn't like to hear an opinion that makes him feel uncomfortable and challenges his morality. Did someone rip open your thin cocoon of warm-fuzzy-feeling, Kevie? Too damn bad. I for one am not "forcing" anything on you Kevie, just asking those tough questions which seem to make you squirm.

 

It is this kind of comments that bring me back for more……thanks KK. You rock.

 

Squirm? I don’t think so.

 

[ClimbingPanther]

bone, when two conflicting "rights" cross, such as an adult's right to life, and another adult's right to pursue what makes him happy which happens to be murdering the first adult, the government must choose which "right" to protect. you could argue that the government ought to protect the second person's right to be happy and let him kill the first person, or you could argue that the first person's right to life trumps the second one's happiness. please articulate how an adult's life is more important than an adult's happiness, yet an unborn child's life is not. and stop talking about Iraq, that is a diversion from your apparent inability to discuss the issue at hand.

[ericb]

I agree…..currently it is our right to have an abortion……thank god we have our government to protect me from people who want to take that right away…..

 

Slavery used to be legal in this country, and accepted in some circles. I think few would now argue that the progression of our country's collective morality in this area was not overwhelmingly positive. Perhaps, at the time, the abolitionists were viewed as "imposing their values" on those that disagreed with them, however I don't see that rhetoric in the modern discussions of the issue.

 

It was a group of people that stood up for the rights of those that couldn't defend themselves. Because the slaveowners at the time were willing to overlook the moral issues of slavery due to the economic repercussions, the government needed to step up. Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it?

 

 

[joblo7]

bone, when two conflicting "rights" cross, such as an adult's right to life, and another adult's right to pursue what makes him happy which happens to be murdering the first adult, the government must choose which "right" to protect. you could argue that the government ought to protect the second person's right to be happy and let him kill the first person, or you could argue that the first person's right to life trumps the second one's happiness. please articulate how an adult's life is more important than an adult's happiness, yet an unborn child's life is not. and stop talking about Iraq, that is a diversion from your apparent inability to discuss the issue at hand.

 

DISPOSING OF A FOETUS that does not have a soul is NOT MURDER..

i am in agreement that it is morally wrong, against nature, and usually a lack of responsability but it is not murder. you are trying to sensationalize the debate to get your point across.mind your own fuckin' bidness. just dont abort yours.

[Seahawks]

 

If that is the criteria they would have to ban everyone here. Its all garbage in spray.

 

Holy crap....I agree with Seahawks.....

 

He is on the money on this one. Its all crap....

 

STFU, nOOb!

 

:lmao:

[KaskadskyjKozak]

bone, when two conflicting "rights" cross, such as an adult's right to life, and another adult's right to pursue what makes him happy which happens to be murdering the first adult, the government must choose which "right" to protect. you could argue that the government ought to protect the second person's right to be happy and let him kill the first person, or you could argue that the first person's right to life trumps the second one's happiness. please articulate how an adult's life is more important than an adult's happiness, yet an unborn child's life is not. and stop talking about Iraq, that is a diversion from your apparent inability to discuss the issue at hand.

 

DISPOSING OF A FOETUS that does not have a soul is NOT MURDER..

i am in agreement that it is morally wrong, against nature, and usually a lack of responsability but it is not murder. you are trying to sensationalize the debate to get your point across.mind your own fuckin' bidness. just dont abort yours.

 

Who are you to decide who has a soul, you blathering dingleberry?

[tvashtarkatena]

when laws are passed to "protect us from ourselves" or remove the right to do something that has no effect on another's rights, then the government has taken advantage of the power we bestow it. like the idea of restricting climbing on Hood. and motorcycle helmets. and homosexuality. and religion. and stores' stocking choices. and a business' smoking policy. and so forth.

 

Our smoking ban passed overwhelmingly by referendum. It was "us telling the government to protect us from us". The government simply did what we told them to.

 

Regarding helmet (and seatbelt) laws: The state provides emergency services, such as EMT, as well as roads. It has the right, therefore, to require a certain amount of safety compliance from citizens using those public facilities. Out of compliance drivers and riders (those who are more seriously injured due to lack of a seatbelt or helmet) soak up the lion's share of state EMT and State Patrol services, thus requiring costly increases in capacity for those services. The state, therefore, has a definable and reasonable interest in mandating the use of the highest value basic safety equipment; most notably helmets, seatbelts, and, to a lesser extent, airbags.

 

It's interesting to note that, after the federal government dropped it's requirement for helmet laws to qualify for highway funding in 1975, the number of states dropped from 47 to about 2/3 of that within 5 years.

 

Furthermore, would you argue that children not be required to wear seatbelts or ride in carseats?

 

Climbing Hood is not a similar issue, because climbers use only 2-3% of SAR services. It could easily be argued that singling climbers out for regulatory purposes violates the constitution's equal protection clause. The state would have to license or ban all outdoor activities, which, of course, would be unnacceptable to the public.

Edited October 3, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Seahawks]

I can go back and find it, I called someone a name (tops) not even the f' word like some people here call others. Warlord went overboard you want my opinion but only his mattered so he did it, not like it mattered anyways becuase who wants to be on here during a weekend.

 

It wasn't for calling someone a name, and it wasn't about politics, you were just being an asshole about a missing hiker and that shit irritated me.

 

If it makes you feel better Seahawks you were a subject of discussion between moderators. None of us had a problem with giving you a time out.

 

Well you can still go back and read it, I never not once said anything bad about the lost Hiker. The other poster said I did and I was defending myself. Like I want someone to get lost and possible die. Thats sick and I don't think anyone here or anywhere in there right mind would want that. But If someone accuses me of saying that including yourself, I will defend my self becuase that is bullshit and not my character.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Seahawks

[kevbone]

that's why the government, like, forces stuff on us like, don't murder people, and stuff.

 

Uh…did you not say this……? Is this not the Hypocrisy thread……I find it hypocritical that you say the government forces stuff on us like….don’t murder people…..yet they are over in Iraq killing thousands of innocent people. Killing in the name of what…….oil…..that would be murder in my eyes.

 

 

please articulate how an adult's life is more important than an adult's happiness, yet an unborn child's life is not.

 

Simple…..because I CHOOSE it to be. Done. Once again….its a choice. I have never been in a position to make the choice……my choice is to always have a choice.

 

[joblo7]

fuckin hypocrite!!!

[kevbone]

Who are you to decide who has a soul,

 

 

Who are you to decide?