Placing bolts

[corvallisclimb]

light hand drill:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-8511-6984-Hand-Drill/dp/B00004T80S

[RuMR]

just what we need to validate pope/dwayner's arguements is some knuckle head getting into trouble almost deliberately and then bolting himself out of it...

 

here's an idea...use your brain...

[RuMR]

light hand drill:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-8511-6984-Hand-Drill/dp/B00004T80S

[dan_forester]

please, it would take jamin forever to drill rap bolts with that thing!

 

a brace & bit is the way to go - brace w/ 4 jaw chuck

[counterfeitfake]

Here is a drill that won't get you in trouble.

 

[dan_forester]

perfect.

[Bug]

Seriously Jamin, your time on this planet is limited.

At least you are leaving behind some fun stories.

We will sit around the fire at rope-up in 2030 and tell Jamin stories to newbs.

[fenderfour]

Prusiks are the way to go. It will take way less time to prusik back up a rappel and to go down the correct route than it will to place one bolt.

[lizard_brain]

Yes but why the hell carry prussiks if you keep them in your pack?

 

[Peter_Puget]

Prusiks are the way to go. It will take way less time to prusik back up a rappel and to go down the correct route than it will to place one bolt.

 

Assuming you are on something steep and making a long rap this is not true. A single 1/4" bolt can be placed in a shorter time than it would take to ascend up a full length of rope on a couple of thin cords.

[lizard_brain]

Prusiks are the way to go. It will take way less time to prusik back up a rappel and to go down the correct route than it will to place one bolt.

 

Assuming you are on something steep and making a long rap this is not true. A single 1/4" bolt can be placed in a shorter time than it would take to ascend up a full length of rope on a couple of thin cords.

 

Especially if you keep them in your pack and you just keep 'prussik materials' instead of tied prussiks on your harness.

 

:lmao:

 

 

[billcoe]

Ok, so let's say that you are in the middle of a multi-pitch rappel and you rappel down to a ledge. Once you get to the ledge, you find out that there are absolutely no rappel anchors down there and nowhere to place pro. Therefore you cannot descend to the bottom of the mountain. Because you are solo climbing, you cannot climb back up to the top of the mountain and go down the easy route. You are stuck.

 

Is there a lightweight way to place bolts so I can ensure that this situation does not happen.

 

 

I just had this happen to me about a month ago. I had a handrill and thought I had it OK all the way, but I was soooo fucked. GD, I was soooo pwned.

 

Rapped down a chimney and thought there was a visible crack down there where the end of the rope was, but it was just these big loose flakes. So I yanked off flakes till it got solid, after 5-10 min of scratching around looking for anything to put a nut into, pulled out my Hurricane handdrill and the hammer, started pecking at the rock. 30 pecks later, I realize that this is going substantially slower than the sun is still moving towards the horizon, faster than the drill bit can work it's magic.

 

Not only is the rock too hard, but check the bit: dull. MF you are such a dumb-ass (speaking to myself, I am the only person here and no one knows where I am but me. No one will come and get me. ) I have 3/8 dia bolts. Too big for an emergency. Slow to drill.

 

Shit, didn't bring a headlamp either. MF you are such a double dumb-ass. How the F did you live to be 52 years old you dumb ass.

 

Ahhh, whats that 30' over there straight left? a 4" diameter fir tree growing out of the rock. I make the 5.10 moves, hoping I don't peel off and smack the rock, as my rope is essentially deep in a chimney, and it doesn't move over with me, so I don't really have a nice tr above, but am looking at a pretty big swinging traverse fall.

 

Make it safely to the little tree, assess it for a rap by yanking on it pretty hard, and decide it will work if I sling it low and I can find a backup piece. Tie it off and pull the rope, which comes most of the way down the chimney and then gets stuck. Stuck bad.

 

MF you are such a dumb-ass, did you just get that rope stuck? The end I have isn't enough to get to the ground. MF you are such a dumb-ass.

 

Now I'm tired, no water, dead beat, muscles cramping, can't get down, can't get up, alone. I still have to unclusterfuck this mess - no one will ever come here and find me until it's too late.

 

Scratch around for a crack. Find none. Tie off the fir and try to reverse the moves. Surprise myself and do it, then climb up and unF*ed the rope, climb down carefully, not a chance in hell that a 4" fir will hold a leader fall of this distance. About 30' across and @25' down. But I'm tied to it anyway on the off chance I'm wrong or to make myself feel good. Actually, the climb over and back really felt good, I like pulling rock I'm thinking to myself, and relieved of the fear I'd had on the way over of a flake pulling off, I'm flowing. I live for this moment.

 

I might be able to pull the moves to the top, on a route which has never been done before or even seen by a human being, but a short consideration and a brief snaileye towards the top later I'm thinking I'd better try for the ground.

 

Once back, runner the tree, decide that although my head is pounding from dehydration, leaving 2 'biners, opposed and reversed is a good idea. At least if the tree pulls, it will look safe when they find me. Set up the rap, then slowly and gently slide over the edge: trying not to take big breaths as the extra weight of the air may do me in. Trying to use my feet to keep less weight on the rope - thinking I should have gone on a diet and lost some of this extra weight. Course I've got the bolt holder, bit, bolts, hammer, blow tube and wrench lowered safely to the ground on the end of the rope and doing nothing productive at this point. Of course.

 

Get down to the ground, pull the ropes and for some damn reason they choose this time NOT to cluster*f and pull right down and the twilight zone effect comes on just as the sun hits the horizon.

 

I beat cleats and clear the woods and make the car just as blackness starts to settle. Laughing my ass off and glad to be alive.

 

So to answer your question Jamin. A bolt kit, with a new bit, holder, and a couple of 1/4" bolts and hangers may get you out of trouble, but may not, as my true example demonstrates.

 

[billcoe]

BTW, I've been to the 7 devils, and it's way out there. So I have some sympathy. I don't carry prussics on my harness either. Why have that stuff catching on flakes as you're climbing? Older/softer slings work Ok for prussiks, even Spectra (I've heard folks say it doesn't work, but it does and works fine-try it) just toss an extra rap or 2 around the rope and you're good to go.

 

Mattp's advice on the Petzl rockpecker is a good one. You can get one for about $50, and you need a hammer as well. You might check ebay for online sales. Pick up any holder. Rawl or the A5 Hurricane Holder would work as well.

 

Both add substantially to the weight you will be carrying for a route like that, and leaving them home may be the best, cause it's a lot of extra weight considering you will hardly ever need them.

[Peter_Puget]

You really think a Petzl holder, a couple of 1/4" bolts and bits really is a sustantial weight? I am assuming that he is already bringing a hammer a couple pins. I think the additional weight is tiny.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Peter_Puget

[billcoe]

You really think a Petzl holder, a couple of 1/4" bolts and bits really is a sustantial weight? I am assuming that he is already bringing a hammer a couple pins. I think the additional weight is tiny.

 

Yes I do, but as it has been well documented, I am an old and weak pussy.

 

Doh, what I think I mean, is for a long mountainous approach especially where you left the pins and hammer behind, it's a lot of needless weight, for El Cap or something like that,: toss it in a 90lb haul pack you you won't notice it's there.

 

Hell, I once put the whole damn yellow Meyers Hardcover in my backback, right in the sleeve next to my back, forgot it and carried up full hike and climb of the grade VI NW Face of 1/2 Dome. Would have been nice to know we had the topo:-)

 

Last time I went up to do just Snake Dike, Ujahn carried the rope, the rack, my shoes, my harness and some of my water and I still struggled to keep up. Times change.

[Peter_Puget]

Bill - A petzl holder can't weigh more than a medium cam. If I was bringing along a bolt kit I definately would be bringing pins and a hammer. I do agree that if you left pins and hammer behind the drill kit would most likely be needless weight.

 

 

[Jamin]

Thank you for the info guys. I appreciate it. I just want to be safe so I don't get in that position again.

 

Billcoe, it seems like there have probably been quite a few people who have been in the situation that you described.

[Bug]

With all due respect to the posters here, you are far better off avoiding those situations.

 

Carrying a bolt kit as a newbie so you can knowingly drop into unknown terrain is much like carrying an aqualung to swim over a waterfall. It's a good idea IF everything else falls into place.

But you are knowingly entering the unknown. You are a newbie. You lack the experience to place said bolt and have it hold you. Note BillCoe's reference to being dehydrated and fatigued?

Jamin, I feel for ya dude. I loved climbing long before I had the knowledge to do it safely. I did a lot of really stupid stunts. I WAS REALLY LUCKY TO SURVIVE!

The difference between you and me is that when more experienced climbers offered to help me, I jumped on the opportunities and followed their advice carefully.

Good luck out there.

[billcoe]

I 100% agree with Bug, and just basically said the same thing on the thread linked above.

 

Jamin, you're skating on the edge here buddy. We've all of us been there, but I'd re-read Bugs post at least twice.

 

Slowly.

 

Really.

[mattp]

I would have to add, too, that you can drop a bolt kit, break a drill bit, botch a placement, .... Don't count on your drill rig as 100% insurance.

[tokyobob]

If you leave the hammer and pins, you could take a Bosch for a little extra weight--a good trade.

[sweatinoutliquor]

One other thing Jamin...

 

First off, the mountains/climbs you would like to decend off of "however you please" may not want or need any more bolts if they already have an established descent line.

 

Second, if you go plugging bolts in at random places you are going to confuse the F&$# out of other people who will try to figure out why there are bolts in such a weird place. Who knows, maybe they will follow your decent line thinking its the right way to go? Maybe that's safe, but I would guess it's not.

 

Third, I don't care how you look at it, bolts, hangers, and bolt kits are heavy and expensive. All that stuff is probably going to set you back 200 bucks at least (hammer, hand drill, bit's, bolts, hangers). Wouldn't you rather buy some nice cams or screws with that money? How about a nice set of jumars?

 

Fourth, please don't buy or place cheap assed bolts in the alpine. The cheap ones just don't seem to last in the harsh NW climate all that well.

 

Fifth, have you ever placed a bolt with a hand drill? God it's a humbling experience... After 25 minutes of whacking that hammer you are seriously going to wonder if you are going to get off your alpine climb that night.

 

It sounds like you are getting the point. I must admit that I have been in this situation before, and I rank it among the stupider things I have done to forge ahead (downward) rather than turn back and find the right way down. I now carry a single light ascender which can be used in conjuction with a reverso/ATC Guide to ascend. Better than prussiks IMO. Good luck out there, be safe!

 

[letsroll]

Take the prussiks out of the pack, put them on your harness. Getting them hung up while climbing???? Never happens to me, but I have them shortened while on my harness, just like every other sling I take, alpine runners, slings for ankers. If you climbed a 5.1 you can bet that the decent is the climbing route. Ten again if you had more experience in the hills you would know that. It also seems you were neglagent in your resurch for the route in the first place. Looking on summitpost is a very basic thing to do.

[RuMR]

man, darwin ROCKS...

 

I can see that the gene pool will be a little bit tidier pretty soon....Thanks Jamin!

[tokyobob]

How can jamin's "conceptual rescue bolt" compare to dudes machine bolting their pet "projects"? At least he didn't begin his climb with bolt premeditation.