Anchor question - Cams vs Stoppers

[dmuja]

 

Serious question re: cams vs stoppers for a hanging belay

 

 

 

In somewhat dubious terrain that is just a bit less than perfect for placing gear (ie, large but broken blocks etc) you have to build an anchor for a hanging or semi-hanging belay....

 

Now, all else being equal, to build said hanging belay anchor, would you rather use:

 

A) cams (SLCDs) to place in the cracks, or

 

B) would you rather use wedges/stoppers?

 

C) Or, an intentional mix of both? (please explain why)

 

 

 

What Im essentially getting at has to do with the outward camming forces of SLCDs verses the constricting/jamming (less outward?) forces of stoppers.

 

Have you ever had a cam (or cams) blow out of a crack due to the large outward forces of the cams expanding the crack?

 

Do you think (or know) that stoppers would be less likely to do this?

 

 

 

So Im looking for people with a lot of real life experience (not all good, mistakes made etc, but lived and learned) to respond to the question(s). Refer to the above "hanging belay anchor" scenario for context.

 

Thanks

 

D

 

PS - Please, no lectures about "not placing gear between loose blocks", I already know this and am not talking text book theory here. Im talking about less than perfect conditions that are often encountered in actual, real life climbing.

[DirtyHarry]

You place whatever you have left on your rack after the last hairball lead.

[StreetBoss]

You place whatever you have left on your rack after the last hairball lead.

 

So true!

 

I like to look ahead and see what the next pitch will need and decide from there. I also prefer to keep my favorite cams (yellow & green metulios - #2 cam) for the climbing. I know exactly the size I need while leading by how tight on my fingers the crack is.

[EWolfe]

You should also throw into the equation whether the leader will continue on lead above said anchor, as that will change the configuration most likely.

 

That being said, I like a combination sometimes, cams others, there's just too many variables to consider without a CBS multi-dimensional graph, IMO

[kevbone]

You place whatever fits the best!

[hefeweizen]

If I'm reading dmuja's question correctly, he isn't asking if he should place what fits best. He's asking about the pros and cons of nuts vs. cams and the outward force they produce in relation to being placed behind loose blocks.

 

In my experience, it all depends. A lot of times you can tell the way the block is stacked whether it is tending to want to pull out, or if the block itself is "cammed" inbetween the others around it. What are the sizes of the blocks? Is it fractured rock or are they 1,000lb boulders that you can sling to use as one of your protection points?

 

Also, if you have a lot of slings or cordelette you can build an anchor utilizing several pieces and compensate for a questionable cam placement by bringing in a cluster of nuts from somewhere else.

 

Again, it all depends, but to answer your question I have always preferred to go with a combination of types of protection based on the specific situation.

[kevbone]

 

Again, it all depends, but to answer your question I have always preferred to go with a combination of types of protection based on the specific situation.

 

"Specific situation", I would think is "what fits the best" for that situation. IMO

[plexus]

If the thought of the cams ever dislodging the boulders ever came into my head, I wouldn't be building an anchor there. It's just that simple. I've built some questionable anchors, like most people here, but would never build one in or around building blocks that I think could topple on top/around/beneath me. I'd rather trust myself and my partner to a bomber nut in a crack than what you're describing.

 

As for which I prefer using to build an anchor - I'll re-voice what has already been said, whatever I have left and what will be needed on the pitch above. My leading philosphy is to use passive pro whenever possible. I keep cams for when I am sketched on tougher terrain and I want to minimalize the time spent slotting pro.

[JosephH]

In general, preset preferences for either active or passive gear in just about any situation is misguided thinking at best - they're both simply tools and the best tool for any given task at hand is what should be used. Ditto for "favorite" sizes of gear which is hopefully saying either you like to climb certain size cracks or the rock where you climb exhibits that size of placement more often than not - otherwise it amounts to a peculiar association with a specific size of gear.

 

That all said, the distinquishing attribute of the scenario you propose is "hanging", which implies you'll likely be unavoidably moving around on this anchor to some degree. In such circumstances you want to be careful any cams used in the anchor aren't going to walk as a result of those movements or from being [partially] weighted and unweighted. Other than that, the combination of individual placements and the basic task at hand should dictate what pro is used, not preconcieved preferences for gear.

 

Many young climbers today are what I describe as "cam-happy" and first try to use a cam at every placement. It's odd, if not painful, behavior to watch at times. There are as many times when a stopper is the obvious choice as there are ones where cams fit that bill. And keep in mind that for a lot of older folks, all the things that make cams wonderful (springs and moving parts) also often make them quite often suspect in some placements as well - it typically doesn't get much more brain-dead simple than a chunk of aluminum in a constriction. Develop the skills and eye for both active and passive pro and such preferences tend to disappear fairly quickly.

 

[ Note: Also, don't get in the habit of not slinging cams when a placement calls for it - cams being cams does not obviate the need to sling adequately... ]

[catbirdseat]

- Use as many different cracks as you can. That way if one of the blocks moves, chances are the others are secure. In otherwords don't put all your eggs in one basket.

 

- Use stoppers if you can. You might want the cams for the next pitch depending on what it is.

 

- If you use stoppers either place them high in the anchor, or very low in the anchor (usually just one for an upward pull). If a shift in your position could dislodge a nut, set it in opposition to another piece using a sling.

 

Two situations where cams can blow out a crack is if there is a loose block or an expanding flake. A stopper set high on a flake, especially an oversized one, is a way to deal with such flakes. If you use a cam, use the very largest size that will fit the crack so that if the flake flexes, there is some range for the cam to expand. Understand you might not get this cam back. Don't go hanging on it if you don't have to.

[JosephH]

Cat - good advice on the egss and expando flakes, but:

 

Use stoppers if you can. You might want the cams for the next pitch depending on what it is.

Works just as well in the reverse -

 

Use cams if you can. You might want the stoppers for the next pitch depending on what it is.

This sort of preferencing is just what I'm referring to above - fairly peculiar at best. When you get to an anchor you should eyeball the next pitch and let what you see or beta you know in advance or from previous ascents determine what you should attempt to reserve for climbing it.

[catbirdseat]

I agree with you, Joe. Use the most appropriate pro for the cracks you have. Don't use a crappy expando flake for a nut when you have a bomber crack that will take a cam.

 

DMuja, all this will become more apparent as you gain experience. Some of it is just having a good eye for good spots to build anchors. Many of the routes you'll be doing have well-established belay locations, chosen because of good ledges and protection. As you get out on more adventuresome routes, it will be less obvious, and you'll have to use your head a lot more.

 

Another tip I forgot to mention. Sometimes it's smart to climb up a bit above your chosen ledge to place a piece or two, then downclimb back to the ledge where you'll set the belay.

[Toast]

Isolate the direction of pull on your most bomber piece with a piece in opposition to that primary bomber piece. Backup with redundant pieces and equalize among the components.

 

I think cams actually magnify force, but beyond that, I try to use passive pro in order to save the cams for when I have less freedom to fiddle.

 

 

[Alpinfox]

If you can put a piece on either side of the block and equalize them, then weight on the anchor should result in balanced forces and no movement of the block. I have actually done this, though the block was never weighted, so I don't know if things would have held as I expected, but it makes sense to me.

 

Cams, because they have an expansion range (duh), would be my first choice for an expanding crack. Passive pieces have a very small expansion range (double duh), so if the crack enlarges even slightly, they will fall out.

 

I think a good mathmagician (I'm not one) could calculate the outward forces generated by a stopper with a given taper angle versus a cam with a given cam angle. I know that metolius cams generate more outward force than BD, or any other cam. This gives them better holding power, but smaller range.

[still_climbin]

I like hexes best if I'm at all worried about the side forces a cam or stopper might exert in a sketchy crack. They have steeper angles than stoppers and if placed with forces in mind, exert more force in the direction of the hex's sling/wire than to the sides of the crack. Of course you have to have a crack that accepts hexes handy.

[dmuja]

Sounds like most people get the point of the question - maybe I could have been more direct though..

 

Long story short, I had 2 of 3 pieces come out at a semi-hanging belay the other day and ended up momentarily hanging from the one still left. The block "looked" solid (not like a block) but after I pounded it (post incident) it vibrated (My Bad! lesson learned). I had had what I thought were 2 "bomber" cam placements in the crack that pulled after a couple minutes of hanging/belaying. The one I had put in the actually solid separate crack likely saved me from a big hurt.

 

Talking with others the last couple days Ive heard a few accounts (at least one fatal) of people blowing belay anchors out by camming less than perfect cracks that turned out to be large blocks.

 

So the main point of this (beyond more careful crack/belay selection) is really about whether you (anyone) has ever deliberately chosen a stopper over an SLCD simply on the basis of wanting to avoid the larger outward forces produced by cams as opposed to stoppers?

 

Stoppers (in my case) may have done the same thing, but after hearing of these other cases involving SLCDs I wonder just how big a factor those outward cam forces can be?

Edited July 13, 2007 by dmuja

[snoboy]

Chuck Norris doesn't use cams or stoppers, he just throws a hand jam in and pulls up the rope with the other hand.

[JosephH]

It's entirely situational and unique to every anchor, especially ones in shitty terrain - but common sense ideas around pro and movable features basically revolve around stabilizing or stopping such movements.

 

For example, in the case of something that moves and also has a crack in the direction of the movement then it's unlikely you'll stabilize it with a cam on one or both sides because cams will allow the feature to keep moving enough for one then the other cam to pull. In such an instance you're better off with a stopper / hex on the side it's trying to move to, or even a rock or stick - anything solid to keep it from moving in that direction. The problem with cams in an anchor in any such feature is they basically require constant. equal pressure to stick which is hard to guarantee when you are shifting around in a hanging belay.

 

Behind fixed, but expanding flakes the idea is generally to either tread incredibly likely and hope all your shit doesn't simply fall out or to force the expansion (pre-expand) to some [theoretical] limit where you can then gingerly place gear hoping the flake's expansion really has stopped or paused.

 

Both situations essentially suck as anchor components, but I'd rather use something I could chock on both sides than just one if it came down to it. But again, if there was any way to stop short or climb further for a better anchor you'd be better off doing that 9 times out of 10.

[Jens]

You place whatever you have left on your rack after the last hairball lead.

Amen.

 

[Drederek]

Glad you survived that belay! I wouldn't willingly belay from such a poor spot. Retreating a bit or simuling past to a better locale would be much safer. Your partner is trusting you to set up something that will hold both of you.

[Bill_Simpkins]

I use whatever I have left and try not to hog up the pieces the next pitch will need. If there are a couple good nut placements at the belay and the next pitch is a handcrack, I'll try to use small cams or nuts.

That is about as complicated as it should be.

[high_on_rock]

If I am climbing established routes, then I guess I do expect my partner to set up an anchor that will hold us both. If I am back country exploring, I guess my expectation is merely that s/he will do the best s/he can with what we encounter. I think this is where the old philosophy of "don't fall" comes in, not knowing if what the leader encounters will in fact make a bombproof anchor.

[G-spotter]

You should use a frickin power drill and place some bomber 1/2" x 5" stainless steel bolts.

[high_on_rock]

If my partner had a power drill, I would not have any problem with her placing some bolts if no other suitable anchor could be built. Peace, love, and independence.