Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[Alex]

I've climbed 3 routes at static and only a handful of days at seneca, so if you think I am out of line with those examples, maybe I am. I remember Static as sunshine, sweet rock, and almost no bolts marring the expanse of slab. Those lines that have bolts at all are very sparsely bolted. Much more so than Darrington. What I remember of Seneca was that it was trad stuff I was on and that was the flavor of the area, I didn't see any bolts there at all.

 

I am not saying there aren't any bolts or that they were not put in on rapp with a cordless drill, but its nothing like the bolt farming you see around here and at many crags in the West these days. Smith, Skaha, Ex32/38, Leavenworth, Vantage, Tieton, tons of places.

[JosephH]

A question for Joseph: is it possible to mix in crushed sand or other small particles of the local rock in the expoxy to provide a more natural color and texture?

 

Raindawg, sorry, somehow missed this one. I think you would be fine with that so long as you didn't use too much, the epoxy is already pretty stiff. I'd say give it a try on some random piece of rock from the trail and see how it mixes, adheres, and works with the brush.

[TimL]

Wow, the only reason I wasted time reading this is because it friggin raining and I can't put my tight, chorizo hugging (Spanish version of horsecock)lycra on and clip some bolts here in euroville.

 

Why do you guys waste so much friggin time beating a dead horse. Go to the gym and train...or climb.

 

Really, Washingtons past climbing history is a mixed bag of everything. This whole idea of "ground up, without bolts, trad superstar" is totally bullshit. I'm sure there are a fair amount of climbs that have been opened this way, but look at the evolution of routes in Washington. If its a crack worth anything, I bet it was nailed on the first ascent. Talk about impact. Then later some hotshot, wearing sexy euro lycra (u know it all started here) free climbed it. Now its open and graded for all us idiots, me included, to throw ourselves at and beat our chests on the internet and postulate about ethics because we now are badass (with or without sexy euro lycra).

Then you have the other type of PNW route that was uncovered from about three feet of moss and dirt. Again, low impact.

 

Putting a bolt next to a crack is not ok. Thats a general rule.

Next it comes down to the perceived idea of boldness and how its interwoven with trad and climbs without bolts etc, etc. Seems like the climbing media, (The Alpinest for one) flaunts boldness as the holy grail of climbing. Myself included, I really don't know right now, neither when I lived in Seattle knew many truly bold climbers. Maybe 10 to 20 percent of the climbers out there are doing bold routes. In reality its a center piece that most like to talk about it, place on a high shelf and look up and smile at it like a Christmas tree decoration. And remeber, hard routes don't mean they are bold routes.

 

I like to think of it this way. Whenever I walk up to a euro sport crag and see a hot spanish chick in skin tight lycra pants and top, it gives my loins a funny, tingling sensation. Kinda like clipping the chains at the end of a sport route. When I finish a long difficult alpine route it gives me a funny sensation in my entire body. The thing is not to forget where you are at and what you are doing. What happened in the past is history, and I doubt we knew what actually went on. We need to carry on and define future ethics for our areas. Instead of bantering on the internet, have a route forum where you can discuss a route, its history and what should be done with it. Maybe over this website or having beers. Put forth an action, get a vote then do something. Easy. Remeber, this is something to keep in our hands as climbers. Once it goes beyond our hands, all of us are screwed as a group.

 

 

[richard_noggin]

A question for Joseph: is it possible to mix in crushed sand or other small particles of the local rock in the expoxy to provide a more natural color and texture?

 

Raindawg, sorry, somehow missed this one. I think you would be fine with that so long as you didn't use too much, the epoxy is already pretty stiff. I'd say give it a try on some random piece of rock from the trail and see how it mixes, adheres, and works with the brush.

Dude your up at 1 AM let it go! get a life!

BTW which routes in Levenslab are yours, so I have some routes to compare with?

OLD Skool up at Dawn, go'n climb'n Dick

[mattp]

Tim L’s got a point. Where it comes to arguing about the good old days or who has athe proper sense of style we could carry on forever but bait and bash arguments on cc.com are of limited value and probably will not result in great progress.

 

One thing is for sure, though: land managers and property owners generally do not want to get involved in bolting arguments and I don’t think it serves climbers well to drag them into these discussions. They may well care about safety and environmental impact, but non-climbers are rarely concerned with what might be “fair means” or the pursuit of 5.15 and generally do not want to be asked to take sides with one group of climbers over another.

 

[John Frieh]

Wow, the only reason I wasted time reading this is because it friggin raining and I can't put my tight, chorizo hugging (Spanish version of horsecock)lycra on and clip some bolts here in euroville.

 

Why do you guys waste so much friggin time beating a dead horse. Go to the gym and train...or climb.

 

Really, Washingtons past climbing history is a mixed bag of everything. This whole idea of "ground up, without bolts, trad superstar" is totally bullshit. I'm sure there are a fair amount of climbs that have been opened this way, but look at the evolution of routes in Washington. If its a crack worth anything, I bet it was nailed on the first ascent. Talk about impact. Then later some hotshot, wearing sexy euro lycra (u know it all started here) free climbed it. Now its open and graded for all us idiots, me included, to throw ourselves at and beat our chests on the internet and postulate about ethics because we now are badass (with or without sexy euro lycra).

Then you have the other type of PNW route that was uncovered from about three feet of moss and dirt. Again, low impact.

 

Putting a bolt next to a crack is not ok. Thats a general rule.

Next it comes down to the perceived idea of boldness and how its interwoven with trad and climbs without bolts etc, etc. Seems like the climbing media, (The Alpinest for one) flaunts boldness as the holy grail of climbing. Myself included, I really don't know right now, neither when I lived in Seattle knew many truly bold climbers. Maybe 10 to 20 percent of the climbers out there are doing bold routes. In reality its a center piece that most like to talk about it, place on a high shelf and look up and smile at it like a Christmas tree decoration. And remeber, hard routes don't mean they are bold routes.

 

I like to think of it this way. Whenever I walk up to a euro sport crag and see a hot spanish chick in skin tight lycra pants and top, it gives my loins a funny, tingling sensation. Kinda like clipping the chains at the end of a sport route. When I finish a long difficult alpine route it gives me a funny sensation in my entire body. The thing is not to forget where you are at and what you are doing. What happened in the past is history, and I doubt we knew what actually went on. We need to carry on and define future ethics for our areas. Instead of bantering on the internet, have a route forum where you can discuss a route, its history and what should be done with it. Maybe over this website or having beers. Put forth an action, get a vote then do something. Easy. Remeber, this is something to keep in our hands as climbers. Once it goes beyond our hands, all of us are screwed as a group.

 

 

My vote for post of the year.

[RuMR]

tim's "evolving"...why just yesteryear, he was gonna chop a spanish bolted crack!

 

 

hysterical that you are complaining about the rain to a bunch of PNW climber wanna-bes!

[high_on_rock]

I would also suggest that landowners are protected from liability for bolts hung on their property, but may start to lose some of that protection if they play too much of a role in deciding where and how they are placed

 

 

RCW 4.24.210(4) "Nothing in this section shall prevent the liability of a landowner or others in lawful possession and control for injuries sustained to users by reason of a known dangerous artificial latent condition for which warning signs have not been conspicuously posted. A fixed anchor used in rock climbing and put in place by someone other than a landowner is not a known dangerous artificial latent condition and a landowner under subsection (1) of this section shall not be liable for unintentional injuries resulting from the condition or use of such an anchor. Nothing in RCW 4.24.200 and this section limits or expands in any way the doctrine of attractive nuisance. Usage by members of the public, volunteer groups, or other users is permissive and does not support any claim of adverse possession."

 

[JensHolsten]

Hey Tim- Most of your post is great, but I gotta say, that the ground up, without bolts, traditional experiance (sorry to steal your line and change it) is not "totally" bullshit. Also, bold climbing is revered by publications like the Alpinist because it is worthy. Climbers who depend on their own mental and physical abilities to overcome obstacles of any magnitude are true adventurers and quite inspiring in my book. I will agree with you that this is a silly thread and believe me, I would be training or climbing if life allowed for that right now. As it is, I can't help but kill the boredom by posting on this site. Hope your doing well!

[JosephH]

Why do you guys waste so much friggin time beating a dead horse.

Because the drills are out in the PNW and already hammering a steady beat so it's a good time to remind folks to use a least a shred of critical thinking, respect, and moderation in the process.

Really, Washingtons past climbing history is a mixed bag of everything. This whole idea of "ground up, without bolts, trad superstar" is totally bullshit.

No, in fact, it is not totally bullshit. What's 'bullshit' is typical revisionist tripe like this.

Maybe 10 to 20 percent of the climbers out there are doing bold routes.

In a time when 80-85% of climbers only clip bolts and just climbing trad at all is labelled 'adventure climbing', it's no surprise 'boldness' has been shovelled into the shadows as kind of an embarassment. The difference between then and now is back in the day only 10-20% were putting up bold [trad] FA's; today only that percentage of people who actually climb trad will even climb those kind of routes, let alone put them up.

 

As far as why things may be a little different in the PNW, I noticed when I was through in 80's that the high percentage of alpine climbers who did rock made for some interesting goings on. I saw that a lot of mainly alpine climbers were either very laidback or outright reckless on rock. Kind of an interesting phenom. Sure, there are lots of PNW climbers like Wayne who are good or great on both, but throwing a ton of alpine guys into the mix makes for a very different 'feel' and result than a pure rock mecca.

[Off_White]

In a time when 80-85% of climbers only clip bolts

 

Got a source on this statistic? Suspecting from whence you may have pulled it, I hesitate to smell it.

 

Valley classics like the East Buttress of Middle, Reeds Direct, Sacherer Cracker, NE Buttress of Higher, and Nutcracker are as busy as ever. Locally, destination moderates like Outer Space, Orbit, the Beckey route on Liberty Bell, Midway on Castle, Godzilla at Index, Inca Roads at Tieton, and stacks of others see constant traffic. Whenever I go out, I see a lot of people placing gear. I think your number is about how you feel, not how the world actually is.

[JosephH]

In a time when 80-85% of climbers only clip bolts

Got a source on this statistic? Suspecting from whence you may have pulled it, I hesitate to smell it.

None whatsoever, there are no numbers for that. They would be fascinating to know. Like following the lifecycle of all climbers who enter a gym in 2007 - how long does their climbing career last in months? How many eventually make it outside? And what would the attrition rate be by month over the next twenty years look like. Pretty damn steep right out of the gate, leveling off a bit but still with big losses through folks twenties and early thirties would be my guess. Those numbers are my guess at the ratio of wholly bolt-enabled climbers for everyone who has 'rock climbed' indoors or outdoors in say 2006 or 2007. What's your best guess given that's all we have to go on...?

 

You go to trad areas, see trad climbers, and base your view on that? If you go to trad areas you'll see trad climbers, but as a percentage of the whole nationwide? I think my numbers are probably pretty damn sound.

[Off_White]

Joseph, it's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer. I had the sense that your statistic was manufactured to support your conclusion, a common move for anyone arguing a position. FWIW, most of the areas I climb at have a mix of routes. I'd be interested in trying to figure out some real numbers, and not in some meaningless internet poll kind of way either.

 

As a first given in sampling our population, I'd like to suggest that if they never make it out of the gym, they don't count. They have no impact on the non-commercial outdoor world, and they're no more climbers than someone who works out on a rowing machine can be considered crew. Anyway, what we're fretting about is the impact out on the rock, right? My time in gyms suggests that you may be correct that a number of people take up gym climbing for a fairly short period of time and never really go anywhere with it. I don't think these are the people we're really concerned about, unless you're developing a business plan for a climbing gym.

 

As a sample of climbers, lets talk about the folks who come to my Wednesday night gig. There's a fair number of people in the regular crew that I would know some of their biography, their age range is from 15 to 55. The crag itself is a quarry that has been converted into a bolts only sport crag, so it doesn't self select for climbers who are necessarily gear oriented. The ratings range between 5.10 and 5.12, arguably a middle range of grades.

 

As a set of questions, how about:

Age?

Years Climbing?

Started indoors or out?

Leads sport?

Leads gear?

Ever FA sport?

Ever FA gear?

Ever placed a bolt?

 

Suggestions for other questions? I think it would be best to keep them simple and quantitative rather than narrative, since I doubt anyone here wants to read 30 climber biographies in a single thread. Some sort of tabulative summary would be more concise.

 

I dunno, maybe this is a stupid and boring idea. I think Taanstaffl's narrative is reasonably ordinary, and her arc of development as a climber from the gym to the outdoors is not particularly rare or special. Then again, I suppose that's my hypothesis, so I'd have to say that 80 to 85 percent of gym climbers who move into the outdoors eventually become gear leading climbers with alpine aspirations who never place bolts.

 

 

[mattp]

It'd be interesting to add a question or two about bolting attitudes, such as "in general, do you feel there are too many bolts in place at crags around Washington state," or "should we strive to maintain some areas relatively free of bolts," or maybe somthing similar. The results of such a survey would give us something to talk about for weeks at least.

[DirtyHarry]

If the extra bolts were not there, wimps like me could never climb these wonderful routes in the same style that the FA's did.

 

And what style would that be? None?

[TimL]

Hey Tim- Most of your post is great, but I gotta say, that the ground up, without bolts, traditional experiance (sorry to steal your line and change it) is not "totally" bullshit. Also, bold climbing is revered by publications like the Alpinist because it is worthy. Climbers who depend on their own mental and physical abilities to overcome obstacles of any magnitude are true adventurers and quite inspiring in my book. I will agree with you that this is a silly thread and believe me, I would be training or climbing if life allowed for that right now. As it is, I can't help but kill the boredom by posting on this site. Hope your doing well!

 

Hey Jens! Hope all is well with you. To add to my point a little, whatI used above was kinda a blanket statement. What I mean to say is actions speak louder than words. Many people speak about bold this and that when what they are saying is just words thry are repeating from something they read in a climbing rag or an ideal they have never put into practice.. They have nothing to back there words up with.

 

I didn't mean that "bold" is bullshit. It's not. It's awesome. But not everything, neither every route can be bold. I have great respect for bold climbers and bold routes. And bold routes shouldn't be tamed by bolts.

 

Rudy - You don't understand. In Spain your supposed to have good climbing weather all year except for a month in the fall and a month in the spring. In Seattle I expect shit weather. Here, it's been raining since March. I slipped my lycra chorizo huggers on last week to see if they still fit, havn't been climbin too much cause the rain. Elena peeked her head in, while I had them on, and asked if I was growing a third testicle. With that I had to reply that it is just my belly cause I've been eating too many pastries.

[RuMR]

:lmao: ahhh Tim...what's that saying about "sinners in hell want ice water?"

 

Jens, hope things are going well...contact me about the turbokid project...PaulT is in town, between you, him and Ben, i wanna see this happen...

Edited June 17, 2007 by RuMR

[Weekend_Climberz]

Did the first pitch (half-pitch) of Straight Street on Saturday with what I would think most people would agree is a definitive authority of bolting in Washington. As a matter of fact, I believe he placed the first bolt in the State back in the 40's or 50's, but whatever. I asked him if he thought the crack was protectable, and he agreed that the bolts were necessary.

 

 

Now, if you walk a little down the trail, you come across this travesty.

 

 

WTF!!

[DCramer]

Consider:

1) Beckey thought bolts were needed on Straight Street

2) A few people I spoke to who have climbed Perils thought would be pretty bold with only the last two bolts..

 

Then consider:

For whatever reason I do not believe that anyone will take me up on my offer although clear assertions were about needed only zero bolts (Straight Street) and at most the last two bolts (Perils)

 

My conclusion is that spray is pretty easy on cc.com. Facts are often lost in the dog pile. For example a few weeks ago someone asked who place some bolts on a certain route at Index. A cc.comer posted incorrect info. I sent him an email letting him know that and stating the correct bolter. He never went back to change his answer although he might have thought I was a Dick for sending him the pm. Alex posted about the “ethic” at Static and was simply incorrect about what that ethic was. I am not saying I am always right and they are always wrong but I am suggesting that people should be in a little less of an attack mode around here.

 

Cheers,

 

[mattp]

I am suggesting that people should be in a little less of an attack mode around here.

 

Cheers,

 

I agree with this whoeheartedly. At Leavenworth, as probably just about everywhere else in the state, I bet most of us could find routes we think are good and routes we think are bad. Some of us focus much more on bolts than others, but our evaluations include ideas like (1) did I or might I enjoy the climb, and (2) do I think it adds to or detracts from the area in question. Given the wide range of aspirations and aspirants, we are never going to reach any consensus.

 

Discussions here on this dot com are clearly much more dominated by an anti-bolt manifesto than than you'd find if you brought up these discussions at the crags, but that doesn't necessarily indicate much about the validity of these views so much as I think a consideration of this aspect of our discussion adds some perspective. Be that as it may, I believe we could have a lot more interesting discussion if folks on ALL sides of the discussion were less quick to rant and rave about "that guy."

 

 

 

[fenderfour]

Consider:

1) Beckey thought bolts were needed on Straight Street

2) A few people I spoke to who have climbed Perils thought would be pretty bold with only the last two bolts..

 

Then consider:

For whatever reason I do not believe that anyone will take me up on my offer although clear assertions were about needed only zero bolts (Straight Street) and at most the last two bolts (Perils)

 

Cheers,

 

Don't play it like that. I PM'd YOU about doing it this past weekend. Your response was a public message that came across as dickish, and that you wanted to get it all taken care of as quickly as possible. I appreciated the opportunity to climb with some new folks for a day or two. After reading your message, I found something else to do. Your attitude would make it an unpleasant outing.

 

No, I don't want to climb with you in the future for any reason.

 

I'm sure you get a lot of criticism as a route developer from folks like me who have no desire to do the hard work themselves. It's part of the package. Don't take it too personal. Some people don't like the stories I write, the music I play, or the drawings I've produced. It's all the same game.

 

If this is such an issue for you, why don't you investigate for yourself instead of relying on second hand information? You are more than welcome to feel self-righteous because Fred thought the bolts were necessary, but until you see the climb, you are ignorant of the real situation.

 

Please return to your regularly scheduled program of manic self-righteousness and superiority, continue to think that everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant f*ck who just doesn't understand.

 

I leave the last word to you, Mr. Cramer.

 

 

 

 

[RuMR]

hmmm...do you know Mr Cramer? He's not like you are painting him...

 

but whatever...

[Weekend_Climberz]

My conclusion is that spray is pretty easy on cc.com.

 

I just got a new keyboard today at work with a custom spray button on it :tup:

 

When the IT guy asked me what it was used for, I told him it was so that I could be cool like the other kids.

[mattp]

Does the spray function weed out the most offensive or idiotic posts when you accidentally log on under your real name?

[soulreaper]

As a quasi-non-sequitur, I think "striving for mediocrity" just about sums it up around here both in terms of climbing and of posting.