Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[Peter_Puget]

Climbs like Gun Rack, the Javelin, Perils of Pauline, and a cfew others could safely be no-bolts, or with just one or two bolts near the top-out, past where cracks run out.

 

There are tons of bolted climbs that are too hard or too "bold" for me, and Peter_Puget is right, Perils of Pauline with NO bolts would be rather runout.

 

Equivocation thy name is Blake. So the goal post has changed…at least a bit. (From Safely to runout) I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils?

 

 

Personal perception on Leavenworth:

I hardly climb in Leavenworth. I think some of the stuff is kinda short. Some of the climbing is simply not the kind of climbing I enjoy. I do enjoy the variety of climbs. A handfull of the new undocumented routes are some of the best climbs in the state and put up in very good style.

 

 

 

[Rad]

A handfull of the new undocumented routes are some of the best climbs in the state and put up in very good style.

 

Where can we learn about these? Are you just a tease?

[MCash]

There are some photos of the new crags on "Peter Puget"'s website, Rad. I didn't see any specific beta on how to get up there though. I assume that is what he is talking about.

[Peter_Puget]

Huh? Undocumented means undocumented. You guys crack me up.

And ya I am a tease but an honest one.

[Rad]

Fine. I look forward to hearing about them when you're ready to share.

[Blake]

Climbs like Gun Rack, the Javelin, Perils of Pauline, and a cfew others could safely be no-bolts, or with just one or two bolts near the top-out, past where cracks run out.

 

There are tons of bolted climbs that are too hard or too "bold" for me, and Peter_Puget is right, Perils of Pauline with NO bolts would be rather runout.

 

Equivocation thy name is Blake. So the goal post has changed…at least a bit. (From Safely to runout) I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils?

 

 

 

Peter, I think if you re-read the above you will note that in both cases I said most (but not all) bolts on those routes could be removed without making the climb unsafe or runout. I never changed goalposts, I just think that bolts should only be on parts of the wall that don't feature solid cracks.

[G-spotter]

Don't qualify it with "solid" cracks Blake. Look at that abortion of a route on Icicle Buttress that has 3 bolts next to a crack where the bolters said that somehow the rock in the crack was flaky or dangerous somehow so their only option was to slam some bolts in

[Peter_Puget]

Climbs like Gun Rack, the Javelin, Perils of Pauline, and a cfew others could safely be no-bolts, or with just one or two bolts near the top-out, past where cracks run out.

 

There are tons of bolted climbs that are too hard or too "bold" for me, and Peter_Puget is right, Perils of Pauline with NO bolts would be rather runout.

 

Equivocation thy name is Blake. So the goal post has changed…at least a bit. (From Safely to runout) I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils?

 

 

 

Peter, I think if you re-read the above you will note that in both cases I said most (but not all) bolts on those routes could be removed without making the climb unsafe or runout. I never changed goalposts, I just think that bolts should only be on parts of the wall that don't feature solid cracks.

 

Still wondering....I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils? So if the last bolt was the only bolt on Perils would it be runout or safe?

Edited June 13, 2007 by Peter_Puget

[Blake]

Climbs like Gun Rack, the Javelin, Perils of Pauline, and a cfew others could safely be no-bolts, or with just one or two bolts near the top-out, past where cracks run out.

 

There are tons of bolted climbs that are too hard or too "bold" for me, and Peter_Puget is right, Perils of Pauline with NO bolts would be rather runout.

 

Equivocation thy name is Blake. So the goal post has changed…at least a bit. (From Safely to runout) I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils?

 

 

 

Peter, I think if you re-read the above you will note that in both cases I said most (but not all) bolts on those routes could be removed without making the climb unsafe or runout. I never changed goalposts, I just think that bolts should only be on parts of the wall that don't feature solid cracks.

 

Still wondering....I wonder specifically which bolts are by cracks on Perils that can be safely removed? How did you determine the climbability of Perils? So if the last bolt was the only bolt on Perils would it be runout or safe?

 

I determined it by climbing Perils of Pauline.

 

as far as I remember, all bolts before the crux bolt (so all but the last 2 or 3) were near pefect gear placements. Even the "crux" bolt could be chopped, though you'd have to pull the 5.11+ move with small a TCU/Alien/Nut near your feet.

[Peter_Puget]

I can't really remember much about the area but think that it would be a dicey lead with only the last one or two bolts. In any event Blake says it can be safely climbed (ie G rated?)using only the last one or two bolts on the pitch. Go at it CC.comer's. Let's get some onsight feedback! Preinspectors and traversrs not allowed.

[Wakaranai]

I do like a lot of these guys routes, but a bolt next to a perfect cam placement is lame. Routes like Condorphamine Addiction and Gun Rack are pretty cool but the spice is rubbed out because of over bolting. Now to be perfectly hypercritical, I like the bolt at the crux of Perils. This is because a dude like me who climbs easy 11's can try a little harder 11's safely. So maybe a route like Condorphamine is geared toward a 5.9 climber who wants to break into the easy 10's I dont know. I guess I feel that when a crag is less than stellar I care less about this issue, but when old routes are retro bolted without permission or a splitter crack is bolted that is no bueno.

[Wakaranai]

P.S.

Index or Squamish next time Blake. (weather permitting)

[matt_m]

If you're just now noticing that leavenworth has everything from stout old school trad to "Friendly" climbs for the masses you missed the "whaaa mbulance" a long time ago. Leavenworth has been mixed ethics for a long long time...

 

You want something to spend energy on? Go do some anchor and bolt maintenence at midnight when it opens and a good ole scrub scrub. Croft just told a bud of mine he skipped an entire summer in squam to climb up there.

[Wakaranai]

Looking a little wet on this side of the mountains again this weekend. L-worth has been the saving grace to my sanity for sure.

[Tony_Bentley]

Blake, why don't you skip that crag and head over to Committed on The Nuthouse? I think it is one of the coolest 5.11's I've ever led, climbed in good style with only chains at the top.

 

 

[Drederek]

Respect their views, put up your own routes and I'm sure they will respect yours.

 

That's some nice happy My Little Pony shit, but the truth is that many of the 11worth rap bolters and pad people don't respect the climbs and routes put up by climbers from prior generations.

As it appears DH does not respect my view I don't understand why I should give a rats ass about his.

[Drederek]

That's some nice happy My Little Pony shit, but the truth is that many of the 11worth rap bolters and pad people don't respect the climbs and routes put up by climbers from prior generations.

 

I'm not sure that statement couldn't apply to virtually every "generation" of climbers since about the time of the first ascent of Mont Blanc.

So climbing ethics are a dynamic thing?

[Sol]

As long as nobody retro's the Black Power arete, i could give a rat's ass if they rap bolt the next 32 ft obscure lump of granite.

 

Blake: go climb Timson's face or the Wilson McNerthney on Givlers. Classic ground-up face climbs by the hardmen of yester-year.

[rat]

If you're just now noticing that leavenworth has everything from stout old school trad to "Friendly" climbs for the masses you missed the "whaaa mbulance" a long time ago. Leavenworth has been mixed ethics for a long long time...

 

You want something to spend energy on? Go do some anchor and bolt maintenence at midnight when it opens and a good ole scrub scrub. Croft just told a bud of mine he skipped an entire summer in squam to climb up there.

 

if you mean by "mixed ethics", ground up vs. rap bolting, yes. however, the trend toward bolting cracks is a relatively recent trend that has accelerated.

 

of course now that we're all concerned about offsetting our carbon impacts, bolted cracks make perfect sense. bolted cracks are arguably more eco-friendly than manufacturing all those fancy widgets. thank god the crack bolters are looking at the larger picture and leading by example, so to speak.

 

and if you just learned that croft skipped a summer in squeamish to climb in worthleavin', you're a bit behind yourself.

 

i don't give my ass to just anyone. consider yourselves lucky.

 

 

 

 

[archenemy]

Noted.

 

 

Bolting cracks is bullshit. Removing them causes damage and then they get rebolted and the argument starts all over.

 

Why is this happening? Safety? Scaredycats? What? And why do folks assume that when a person wants to climb the crack as it is (unbolted), that they are looking for some ego trip rather than just looking for some good crack? I don't get it.

[fenderfour]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Come on, using a crowbar and a hammer, bolting cracks...it's fun. If you haven't done it, you should try it. It's very relaxing. Mmmmm...I love the smell of burnt rock after a good trundling session

[catbirdseat]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

Go out and look for yourself. You will find that in most cases, these "cracks" are problematic on one way or another for trad leading. It most cases, they are either weak flakes, offwidth flakes, laybacks, flares, etc. I'd have to say that in the case of The Javelin that most of those arguments don't fly. As a layback it is simply a lot easier to protect and they thought it would see a lot more traffic that way (bolted), which is true- 5.10- bolted, but 5.10+/5.11- on gear only.

 

Gorilla my dreams is another example, although a more extreme one. It could be led on gear, but you'd need multiple big pieces (5-6") whereas Javelin could be led on a single set to 4".

 

In answer to MCash's question, Ron Cotman did many of the routes at Clem's/Special Spot/Retardant Rock.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2007 by catbirdseat

[matt_m]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

 

Pretty sure the "don't know any better sportos" are responsible for what seems like 50% of the routes in the Guide. areas like Pearly Gates were also done by the "sport climbers" weird...

 

Javelin FA is listed as 1995. The others named in 2001. All these lines have been climbed over and over and over again. Little late to whine now... East Buttress of Mid Cathedral has a bolt ladder on it that can be freed! We should go get that too!

 

IF it's the same crew I've met - they're very thoughtful, experienced and knowledgeable about route development. Did some FANTASTIC lines they had put in the day before that were mixtures of gear and bolts (all I thought, very well done - gear for the cracks, bolts for the chicken head climbing etc)

 

 

[Raindawg]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

 

I would suggest that some of the crack-bolters are sport-climbers who don't know how to climb cracks. Crack climbing is an art that takes practice. Given that a lot of sporto's are gym-graduates, many probably don't have the appropriate skills. Last time me 'n "pope" went to a gym (some place in Seattle), there was a just a little section in the giant complex with a hand crack. We walked right up this thing and most of the gym-rats stared at us like we were a couple of aliens. Not only aren't the sporty masses trained well (or at all) for cracks, they're not trained well to place protection. They learn, in the gym and at the sporty crags, that clippin' bolts is "how it's done".

 

Go ahead....ask this crag-cravin' sport-monkey: