Infinite Bliss chopped- true or false?

[billcoe]

I gotta blog? Where is it I want to read it:-)

 

I put this one in spray yesterday, I'm the dude in blue with the grey 15 year old sale tennis shoes which say, "made in America" on them. (I stocked up on closeouts and wore the identical pair until I could see flesh)

 

My neighbor was just pointing out these shoe facts to me while laughing his ass off at my frugality as he's a designer for Nike.

 

spray pic

 

Regards to all

 

Bill

 

BTW thanks High, but it's OK. I think this has been a good discussion of viewpoints and Joseph and I are getting along fine despite the way it appears here, and have a parallel e-mail private discussion going on another subject (unrelated) which is very amicable, I hope that we are able to give our honest viewpoints in this way (amicably) on this thread, cause at the end of the day, JH and I will be belaying each other, and I intend to give, and hope to get, a great belay.

 

Realistically, some of you guys out there argueing for leaving it be seem to be making some of their points for them.

[motomagik]

Wow it's Monday, are we still hearing about IB? There isn't much to say that hasn't already been said on both sides of the argument, but....

 

 

Sometime around the end of the 70's, early '80's, some dirty stunts begin to appear, most notably at the Smith Rocks. Guys like Alan Watts, to their everlasting shame, started their drilling. I thought the whole concept as it evolved was appalling...from the promiscuous use of bolts, often placed on rappel, to a new type of sieging..."red-pointing" and hang-dogging...with unlimited rehearsals after which one could claim to have ascended a "big" number. [Note: I separate the harmless stylistic affronts - "red-pointing" etc., from the truly serious methodological issues: leaving permanent bolt trails in the wake.]

 

The manufacturers, retailers and magazine-makers loved it! Sport-climbing's cheap, dumbed-down learning curve and limited risks gave it mass-appeal and the sale of shoes, ropes, harnesses, etc. sky-rocketed. Yeah! More $$$$$$! Who cares about crowds or grid-bolting! $$$$$ And now gyms feed into the system as nurseries for new "climbers", sent "outdoors" with little or no ethical training.

 

Is this what everyone is so upset about? That IB's existence is going to lead to the North Cascades becoming the next Smith Rock? I'm sorry but this is quite a long, long stretch. First of all, despite the reputation that the route developed it is by no way a "sport route", as anyone who has climbed it would tell you.

There are many reasons why Smith is a zoo, and why if you were to climb this route on any given day there is a 99% chance that you would be the only people up there. These reasons are not going to change. There is not going to be a parking lot and a 5 minute downhill trail to Mt Garfield. There is no opportunity for hangdogging, if you are not up to the task then you will not be able to climb the route (calling "take" is not an option when the last bolt you clipped is 40 feet below you). There will not be line-ups at the base of the route. If you were to climb it, you would not hear people yacking on their cell phones. etc etc.

Anyways, in one of the MANY other threads on this topic it was mentioned to let sleeping dogs lie. I don't think it benefits the climbing community to have a war over this subject, there ARE more important issues at hand for both climbers and the Forest Service, and anyone else concerned with preserving our environment for our grandchildren.

 

[John Frieh]

The problem I have is exclusively with sport climbers. Sport climbing over twenty five years, in combination with gyms, has been a complete and absolute and unequivoval plague on the landscape. A vast majority of folks of 'climbers' today are wholly bolt-enabled and risk-averse and almost none of them would have been climbers back in the day. I make no bones or apologies about it - my clear and abiding preference would be that they weren't 'climbers' today. Again, this 'revolution' is entirely mechanized, and has led to crowding, access problems, and relentlessly threatens trad crags and routes everywhere.

 

Hate clouds judgement.

 

September it is. See if you can get dwayner and pope to come.

[billcoe]

September it is. See if you can get dwayner and pope to come.

 

They still climb?

_________________________________________________________

 

Anyways, in one of the MANY other threads on this topic it was mentioned to let sleeping dogs lie. I don't think it benefits the climbing community to have a war over this subject, there ARE more important issues at hand for both climbers and the Forest Service, and anyone else concerned with preserving our environment for our grandchildren.

 

I agree. The Forest Service did look at this whole issue, evaluated it, and then put it behind them.

 

We should too.

[RuMR]

At it's core lies the belief that what you do is valid, and what others choose to do is invalid: only the one thing is real climbing and people like boulderers, mixed climbers, and sport climbers are infidels to be purged from the one true religion. The core philosophy is fascist in nature, and that's what repeatedly gets my hackles up.

 

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Off. I have nothing but admiration for boulderers and always have since early Gill days. Boulderers are taking risks and are totally self-reliant in their endeavors - and the don't dog routes on top of it. I also have no problem with mixed routes, they've always been part of climbing.

 

The problem I have is exclusively with sport climbers. Sport climbing over twenty five years, in combination with gyms, has been a complete and absolute and unequivoval plague on the landscape. A vast majority of folks of 'climbers' today are wholly bolt-enabled and risk-averse and almost none of them would have been climbers back in the day. I make no bones or apologies about it - my clear and abiding preference would be that they weren't 'climbers' today. Again, this 'revolution' is entirely mechanized, and has led to crowding, access problems, and relentlessly threatens trad crags and routes everywhere.

 

Despite what some may assume, I am not a fan of overbolted routes and guaranteed risk free climbing, but I am a die hard believer in plurality and individual freedom.

 

When plurality and 'individual freedom' are wholly predicated and based on the application of battery technology and stainless steel to pristine rock instead of personal responsibility I am no believer at all. And hey, I may well be the last guy on earth taking an unequivocal and unvarnished stance against sport climbing, but so be it. The true fascism (or maybe you prefer communism, which is quite a bit more accurate) happening is happening at the point of a drill.

dude...get over it, you fuckin' elitist prick...

 

Do you use a wheelbarrow to haul your lead balls around in??

[kevbone]

Thank god Rumur is around to keep it real.

[high_on_rock]

People talk about rock as though it is sacred. Every day, we grind up rock to drive on, we dump it in holes to fill them, we blast it for mining. Even out in the back country, I pee on it and shat (only non-stinky shats) on it all the time. I know that in some parts of the world they hold cows sacred, some feel a flag is sacred, and my ex wife finds my income sacred; but when did “rock” become sacred?

[kevbone]

but when did “rock” become sacred?

 

August 23 1996.....my first climb.

[Raindawg]

September it is. See if you can get dwayner and pope to come.

 

They still climb?

 

Ya, pal..they do...why would you ask such a thing? We don't question you.

 

Dwayner not only climbs, he teaches climbing, and is a professional explorer.

 

"pope" doesn't get out quite as much as before due to family priorities, but not only is he an excellent climber, he's also a maniac on a mountain bike. He and Dwayner regularly train together through trail and hill running.

_________________________________________________________

Anyways, in one of the MANY other threads on this topic it was mentioned to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

I agree. The Forest Service did look at this whole issue, evaluated it, and then put it behind them.

We should too.

 

I don't think the Forest Service has been, or was, exposed to the full range of opinions on this subject, so I hope somebody there is reading this dog and pony show.

 

I've said what I have to say for the moment and nothing I've heard in response has swayed me from my original opinion. Interesting "discussion", however; a combination of some of the most uninformed, dumbest stuff I've read on cc.com along with some serious, thoughtful and passionate commentary. The story ain't over yet!

 

[JosephH]

You don’t.

 

Kevin, I don't need to climb IB to know it takes pro across a bunch of those pitches. Get real you're comparing a few feet on one pitch with 22 pitches on another. John's in, how about you...?

[billcoe]

In response to do Dwayner and Pope still climb.

 

Ya, pal..they do...why would you ask such a thing? We don't question you.

 

Well Don, first of all, my name is Bill. It's Bill Coe. Not pal.

 

You asked so I will explain it. All I ever see you post is pictures of clowns or PeeWee Herman. Now, don't mistake me, when you're on, which is frequently, you are so damn funny I almost pee on myself. You've got a rich sense of humor and deep intellect. I'm pretty sure you'd be awesome company out and about.

 

BUT, since you asked, except for a few pics of the Don early years, I don't recall seeing pics of you climbing, while just above in this thread even I linked to a pic of Kevbone and I at the rock just 2 days ago.

 

I see pics from Kevin climbing all over, good ones too, and I see TR's I've done of Yos and Red Rocks last few months, but not of yours.

 

You have a big footprint on these kinds of threads however....

[JosephH]

The problem I have is exclusively with sport climbers. Sport climbing over twenty five years, in combination with gyms, has been a complete and absolute and unequivoval plague on the landscape. A vast majority of folks of 'climbers' today are wholly bolt-enabled and risk-averse and almost none of them would have been climbers back in the day. I make no bones or apologies about it - my clear and abiding preference would be that they weren't 'climbers' today. Again, this 'revolution' is entirely mechanized, and has led to crowding, access problems, and relentlessly threatens trad crags and routes everywhere.

 

Hate clouds judgement.

 

I don't 'hate' sport climbers - it's more like wishing there were fewer Oregonian drivers who can't drive when you're stuck on 84 eastbound during rush hour and it's snowing.

 

September it is. See if you can get dwayner and pope to come.

 

Should be fun, let's keep it down to two unless Kevin is in...

[billcoe]

I don't 'hate' sport climbers - it's more like wishing there were fewer Oregonian drivers who can't drive when you're stuck on 84 eastbound during rush hour and it's snowing.

 

And to further complete that anology, these people learned how to drive a bumpercar in a closed track and just moved into freeway driving with people who learned, practiced and worked at driving, and now - in order to stop the car freeway clusterf*, it appears that some random authority may soon step forward and decide that NOBODY will be allowed to drive so that they can prevent a few cars driven by these shitassed drivers to keep from sliding off the road and killing the occupants.

[kevbone]

You don’t.

 

Kevin, I don't need to climb IB to know it takes pro across a bunch of those pitches. Get real you're comparing a few feet on one pitch with 22 pitches on another. John's in, how about you...?

 

 

Uh....unless you have some sort of mental telepathy to read the minds of the FFA team…..you do have to climb it to know. Please stop assuming.

 

I have no doubt you can place gear……my question is did they put bolts next to cracks? I will find out soon enough.

 

[JosephH]

You don’t.

 

Kevin, I don't need to climb IB to know it takes pro across a bunch of those pitches. Get real you're comparing a few feet on one pitch with 22 pitches on another. John's in, how about you...?

 

 

Uh....unless you have some sort of mental telepathy to read the minds of the FFA team…..you do have to climb it to know. Please stop assuming.

 

I have no doubt you can place gear……my question is did they put bolts next to cracks? I will find out soon enough.

 

22 pitches in the North Cascades with no pro - right, in your dreams - they went up there with the exlusive purpose of putting in a sport route and did. So that means you're in...?

[chris]

You don’t.

 

Kevin, I don't need to climb IB to know it takes pro across a bunch of those pitches. Get real you're comparing a few feet on one pitch with 22 pitches on another. John's in, how about you...?

Joseph,

I have to call bull on your assertion that IB takes gear across "a bunch of those pitches".

I have climbed IB and I don't recall see any locations that a bolt was placed near a feature that could have been used for gear.

The fellow who accomplished the FA of the West Face did so by soloing up to about 5.8 in difficulty, and zig-zags across the face. His line shares only 5-6 pitches of IB.

I have nothing but respect for you, but in this instant your assertion does not match with my experience on the route.

Chris

[JosephH]

I have climbed IB and I don't recall see any locations that a bolt was placed near a feature that could have been used for gear.

 

I didn't say they bolted next to cracks, I said I could find gear on lots of those pitches. I don't plan on doing more than using the same start as IB and take whatever line appears to be the best to the top.

[chris]

The face is huge - there's room for at least two or three more distinct routes - does it really prove anything if one route is a bolted direct line?

Edit: I've been hoping to go back this fall and repeat the original solo route, roped.

Edited June 11, 2007 by chris

[RuMR]

I have climbed IB and I don't recall see any locations that a bolt was placed near a feature that could have been used for gear.

 

I didn't say they bolted next to cracks, I said I could find gear on lots of those pitches. I don't plan on doing more than using the same start as IB and take whatever line appears to be the best to the top.

just sitting here wondering whether you will be wearing a tshirt that says "MY BEACH" and using your brass balls or your lead ones...

 

Personally, i'd go with the lead ones...much more "heroic" and worthy of chestbeating...

[kevbone]

22 pitches in the North Cascades with no pro - right, in your dreams - they went up there with the exlusive purpose of putting in a sport route and did. So that means you're in...?

 

I would love to do some climbing with you....but like I said, by Sept I will have already climbed it.

[Rad]

Raindawg et al,

 

If you are truly concerned about preserving the natural state of the rock then you must consider several ways climbing can have an environmental impact:

 

1 - Bolts leave manmade materials behind and permanently alter a small section of rock (about one square inch per bolt, or only a few square milimeters if the bolt is removed and the hole is filled). This impact does not depend on whether bolts are placed on rappel or on lead or drilled by hand or with a powertool.

 

2 - Pitons have same impact as bolts, although the damage they inflict on cracks cannot be reversed and is more variable than bolts. If you think pitons have no permanent impact on cracks go climb in Yosemite, where some routes are climbed primarily via jams in pin scars.

 

3 - Anchors usually leave more manmade material behind than bolts or pins. They may involve chains and/or large quantities of nylon slings. When trees are used as anchors on high-use routes, they are often severely damaged. This is why many support the use of bolt anchors on popular routes.

 

4 - Many routes require cleaning before they are safe for mass consumption. The amount of cleaning will vary, but often involves removing vegetation and loose rock. Even areas that seem to require little cleaning are impacted by traffic. Case in point: finding most climbs in Leavenworth is simply a matter of finding the lichen-free stripes running up the cliffs. These are seen from a great distance, from which bolts are invisible.

 

5 - Trails, and all of their features, whether built through concerted effort or simply worn in by human traffic, can have a large impact on the landscape.

 

In my limited experience as a fledgling route-setter working at an area where bolts are already the standard, I can tell you that the relative impact of the items mentioned above is 5 > 4 >> 3 > 1. From the wilderness and alpine routes I've climbed, I would say that their relative impact is 5 > 4 >> 3 > 2 = 1.

 

Thus, with regard to environmental impact, your obsession with bolts seems to be misplaced and is perhaps driven by your view that sport climbing has unacceptably reduced the risks of climbing. If you could separate the environmental impact issues from your views on sport climbing style you might assemble and articulate a more compelling argument. Good luck with that.

 

Cheers,

Rad

[JosephH]

Thus, with regard to environmental impact, your obsession with bolts seems to be misplaced and is perhaps driven by your view that sport climbing has unacceptably reduced the risks of climbing. If you could separate the environmental impact issues from your views on sport climbing style you might assemble and articulate a more compelling argument. Good luck with that.

 

The impact, both environmental and access, is entirely the crowds that follow the bolts - it's a pied piper effect.

 

P.S. 'Route-setting' only happens in gyms except when you confuse climbing for a simple, outdoor emulation of what takes place inside one. The lack of both perception and distinction of the difference is exactly the problem I keep alluding to.

[kevbone]

Raindawg et al,

 

If you are truly concerned about preserving the natural state of the rock then you must consider several ways climbing can have an environmental impact:

 

1 - Bolts leave manmade materials behind and permanently alter a small section of rock (about one square inch per bolt, or only a few square milimeters if the bolt is removed and the hole is filled). This impact does not depend on whether bolts are placed on rappel or on lead or drilled by hand or with a powertool.

 

2 - Pitons have same impact as bolts, although the damage they inflict on cracks cannot be reversed and is more variable than bolts. If you think pitons have no permanent impact on cracks go climb in Yosemite, where some routes are climbed primarily via jams in pin scars.

 

3 - Anchors usually leave more manmade material behind than bolts or pins. They may involve chains and/or large quantities of nylon slings. When trees are used as anchors on high-use routes, they are often severely damaged. This is why many support the use of bolt anchors on popular routes.

 

4 - Many routes require cleaning before they are safe for mass consumption. The amount of cleaning will vary, but often involves removing vegetation and loose rock. Even areas that seem to require little cleaning are impacted by traffic. Case in point: finding most climbs in Leavenworth is simply a matter of finding the lichen-free stripes running up the cliffs. These are seen from a great distance, from which bolts are invisible.

 

5 - Trails, and all of their features, whether built through concerted effort or simply worn in by human traffic, can have a large impact on the landscape.

 

In my limited experience as a fledgling route-setter working at an area where bolts are already the standard, I can tell you that the relative impact of the items mentioned above is 5 > 4 >> 3 > 1. From the wilderness and alpine routes I've climbed, I would say that their relative impact is 5 > 4 >> 3 > 2 = 1.

 

Thus, with regard to environmental impact, your obsession with bolts seems to be misplaced and is perhaps driven by your view that sport climbing has unacceptably reduced the risks of climbing. If you could separate the environmental impact issues from your views on sport climbing style you might assemble and articulate a more compelling argument. Good luck with that.

 

Cheers,

Rad

 

Damn.......

[billcoe]

blah blah blah

 

Cheers,

Rad

 

If I might field this one:

 

All those bolts lead to more people which will lead to every envrionmental issue you bring up.

 

Next....!

______________________________________________________________

 

Kevin, he's not talking about doing IB and not clipping the bolts, but in fact heading to that area and doing a route, sans bolts. You might cross the IB line here or there, roughly follow it there, but basically shoot for the JH line, which will invarably be somewhat different as it will have to be following natural features.

 

If you had climbed IB earlier, you will be well versed in potential variations and lines to look at the second trip up....

 

 

oh, the first part was already answered, guess I need to type faster.

Edited June 11, 2007 by billcoe

[JosephH]

4 - Many routes require cleaning before they are safe for mass consumption.

 

Oops, missed this gem first pass through - pretty much speaks directly to the heart of the problem in eloquent, straightforward, and honest words - direct 'from the mouth of innocent babes' as it were...