mattp Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Folks are going to do what they are going to do, I guess, but I believe that attempting to show that "climbers can police themselves" in this manner would do little or nothing to impress either the Forest Service or the Alpine Lakes Protection society that we are a responsible user group. Should there erupt some big uproar, it would support just the opposite conclusion. Those who are unhappy with the existence of Infinite Bliss should, in my mind, work toward spreading their message rather than pursuing or promoting vigilante justice. In this regard, I commend Joseph Healy for his activities at Beacon, and RainDawg for his (former?) efforts in teaching new climbers how to climb clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Folks are going to do what they are going to do, I guess, but I believe that attempting to show that "climbers can police themselves" in this manner would do little or nothing to impress either the Forest Service or the Alpine Lakes Protection society that we are a responsible user group. Should there erupt some big uproar, it would support just the opposite conclusion. Those who are unhappy with the existence of Infinite Bliss should, in my mind, work toward spreading their message rather than pursuing or promoting vigilante justice. In this regard, I commend Joseph Healy for his activities at Beacon, and RainDawg for his (former?) efforts in teaching new climbers how to climb clean. Well put Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattski Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 Thanks for all the input. For all the effort it takes to talk about chopping out there, I hope you guysare getting some climbing in. This sport is not important enough to waste time chest beating. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Well spoken pagetop Matt: In fact, "chopping" the route and having it put in again is essentially showing the "authorities" that we are truly just weak spirited children who cannot play well in the same sandbox and need them to step in with their guidance, authority and rules. F them. I pee in your beer Raindawg. Leave the route alone is my stong vote for that reason. Leaving it as is will not "encourage" others to so the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Well spoken pagetop Matt: In fact, "chopping" the route and having it put in again is essentially showing the "authorities" that we are truly just weak spirited children who cannot play well in the same sandbox and need them to step in with their guidance, authority and rules. F them. I pee in your beer Raindawg. Leave the route alone is my stong vote for that reason. Leaving it as is will not "encourage" others to so the same. Well said Bill....good to see you today in my sand box..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Can wa agree to disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Kevin, absolutely, I think this is one issue where many of us are never going to agree. There's not much RainDawg and I agree on so that's probably indicative of the level of commitment on both sides of this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Hey, check it out, we're opening some new routes at the quarry. It's all good, innit? Private property and all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 people w/ opinions are annoying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 You know, for kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thank god they're being shown how it's done by professionals. Was this one of the IB FAs in another selfless act of community service.? Private land or not, it's always encouraging to see the right values being passed down to our children so they'll know how to treat public lands when they grow up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 If you want to rape your own private property...have at it. But keep that horseshite off of my (and your) public land! Regardless, it's a piss-poor edumacation for the kids, who very well might assume that "this is how it's done". aloha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Yes, you can tell by the rack of brake bars that he's a professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ooh, one more, I just can't help myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 You are without conscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132435465768 Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 As per your SOP you really feel that you speak for the community at large. Since your so concerned about washington why don't you come up and walk your talk. This is the second time i have said this to you. I am glad you are not a cop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Doesn't everyone know that Jens broke his foot. It'll be at least a few more months before he has a chance to get to it. Be patient :lmao: I don't know man. I spoke with him on the phone last night and he said he was "Feeling Like Elvis". He's so hopped up on pain meds right now that I bet you could talk him into it. BTW,his docs told him surgery went well. I'm going to go visit on Monday, but I bet he's posting here by then. He's hangin' out at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I do walk my talk in Washington, just not that far north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Careful Off - a boulderer might stumble onto this thread and want to tangle with you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Pfft, I outweigh any two boulderers added together, bring 'em on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Again, you need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. No apology is needed. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs. You are wrong Joseph. It is an "opinion" you have. I do not share your "opinion", nor do about 90% of all other climbers I'd imagine. If Harding had listened to the "Agencies and Authorites" El Cap might still be off limits to all climbers. In my "opinion" none of your remarks hold up to scrutiny, as they are only your "opinion". If it is true that as a community we should reach consensus before we do such an radical act as removing the protection on an existing route, or even changing single bolt on any route. If that is truly the case, then this needs to go a significantly longer distance via discussion only to reach that consensus. You are a good and descent person Joseph, but you might entertain the idea that you are wrong in your opinion, and that everybody else, who wants it to be left alone and in place, is right. That is the way I feel abou it, and o matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. BTW: this is the way this route looks. Photo Dave Burdick. Pretty f*en sweet looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route....Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share....That is the way I feel about it, and no matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. Wrong. Joseph speaks for many of us who are very unappreciative of sport-rape being transferred to the mountains. (and by the way, not all members of the so-called "community" participate on forums such as cc.com). It's not a delusion. You don't have to share the opinion...you have yours and we have ours....and just because you disagree, and it might be a "minority" viewpoint, doesn't mean we are automatically wrong, nor that we will go away. Stellar? The route is a piece of crap that should be an embarassment to anyone who cares about the mountains. Keep your opinion, sir, and we'll keep ours, until we find something utterly compelling to sway us otherwise. good day sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ahhh, and now we hear from one of the couple of climbers I noted above in my post. You are welcome to your opinion even if it is wrong. And good day to you as well, Sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Again, you need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. No apology is needed. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs. You are wrong Joseph. It is an "opinion" you have. I do not share your "opinion", nor do about 90% of all other climbers I'd imagine. If Harding had listened to the "Agencies and Authorites" El Cap might still be off limits to all climbers. In my "opinion" none of your remarks hold up to scrutiny, as they are only your "opinion". If it is true that as a community we should reach consensus before we do such an radical act as removing the protection on an existing route, or even changing single bolt on any route. If that is truly the case, then this needs to go a significantly longer distance via discussion only to reach that consensus. You are a good and descent person Joseph, but you might entertain the idea that you are wrong in your opinion, and that everybody else, who wants it to be left alone and in place, is right. That is the way I feel abou it, and o matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. :tup: :tup: :tup: :rawk: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.