kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 and just because you disagree, and it might be a "minority" viewpoint, doesn't mean we are automatically wrong, Yes it does. Stellar? The route is a piece of crap Really, how would you know? Have you climbed this climb? That’s what I thought. You really have no room to talk and moralize about something you know nothing about. Raindog....go climb the climb and I "might" respect your criticism more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Bill, nowhere in that post, or in any other post on this topic have I ever claimed to be speaking for anyone but myself. That's what phrases like these mean: It is unbelievable to me... ...as far as I'm concerned... After going over an issue in my mind, it doesn't change my views, values, or opinion on a matter whether you or anyone else believes differently - especially when there are no new facts which might change those opinions. Whether you, or 99% of you, consider this abortion a stellar climb, I do not and will never share that opinion - to me it it's an enduring insult to everything I consider worthwhile about climbing (and long or short, no matter how many times you repeat it to yourself, this choss heap is never going to be 'stellar'). If indeed there really are 'thousands of appreciative climbers' for IB having been put up then I for one remain all the more embarassed for that sad fact. Again, I speak only for myself and you are free to your opinions (though I wouldn't ever call them, or the fact that you hold them, delusional). But, I do not, nor will I ever, make any apologies for either my opinions or the fact that I happen to hold this one strongly. Now again, you can say you don't share an opinion of mine - but there is nothing whatsoever 'wrong' about it just because you happen to disagree with it. I say what I feel needs to be said on this issue when it comes up to insure folks know there is another opinion on the matter, however minority. Oh, and I'm a devout atheist, so I don't really care what God's opinion on the matter is. And given I think God is just another weak construct by and for people who need pre-placed protection in life, I have no doubt whatsoever God is entirely on your side in the matter. And Kevin, the quality of climbing on IB is wholly and completely irrelevant; this isn't about that. There is nothing one can experience on the climb that is remotely relevant to my opposition on it. It could be the new Nose or Astroman and I'd be just as opposed it. The fact that it is essentially a run of overbolted choss below a couple of ok climbing pitches just makes it all the more pathetic to have pissed off various agencies over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. If that route had been bolted by hand, I might agree with you, but since it wasn't, and the routesetter claims it wasn't in Wilderness on the map, I say BS both to you, and to him. In the latter case for not doing his homework on the boundaries. IB has been in the wildernes since the '80s, and if there was even one iota of uncertainty, one phone call to the NB Ranger office would have cleared it up. Most of my maps have it outside, but at least one has it inside. If it were clearly outside the wilderness, there would be no discussion IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Am I the only one who gets turned on when Rainhawg starts his "I want to be a rebel" manly attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 The fact that it is essentially a run of overbolted choss below a couple of ok climbing pitches just makes it all the more pathetic to have pissed off various agencies over. How would you know? Let me guess.....you have heard this? That is a no no JH. Hearsay? Overbolted.....I am told alot of the pitches are 80 to 120 between bolts....overbolted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 and just because you disagree, and it might be a "minority" viewpoint, doesn't mean we are automatically wrong, Kevbone's ignorant, thoughtless, kneejerk response: Yes it does. Stellar? The route is a piece of crap Another thoughtless ignorant response from Kevbone: Really, how would you know? Have you climbed this climb? That’s what I thought. You really have no room to talk and moralize about something you know nothing about. The very notion of this "route" offends me from its location to its style. (And I could care less if there were "quality" moves on "awesome" rock...which apparently there are not...as JosephH notes, "the quality of climbing on IB is wholly and completely irrelevant"). There is no need to physically experience this attrocity. By the way, you really need to take some sort of basic Philosophy 101 type course; it might help clarify some of your thinking before you blat out some of your foolishness. For example, one need not personally experience heroin, suicide, or swimming in an open sewer to have an opinion on the subject, nor be a woman to have an opinion about abortion or breast cancer, nor spend time in Auschwitz to have an opinion about the Holocaust. This book might give you a start: Raindog....go climb the climb and I "might" respect your criticism more. I don't require nor need your respect. Am I the only one who gets turned on when Rainhawg starts his "I want to be a rebel" manly attitude. It's a shame that you find my attitude rebellious; I would hope more people would share my views and maybe they do or will. Turned on? If you're a dude, you're not my type. By the way, it's Raindawg...it would have been so easy to have been rude and changed the first letter of the word "rock" in your phony internet name...but I held off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 By the way, you really need to take some sort of basic Philosophy 101 type course; it might help clarify some of your thinking before you blat out some of your foolishness. For example, one need not personally experience heroin, suicide, or swimming in an open sewer to have an opinion on the subject, nor be a woman to have an opinion about abortion or breast cancer, nor spend time in Auschwitz to have an opinion about the Holocaust. I agree….one does not need to experience heroin, suicide, or swim in a open sewer to have an opinion….BUT you do need to “see the movie” before you talk trash take it. You are that guy aren’t you? You’re the guy who bags on movies simply because others tell you they are no good. Lame….never listen to the critics. You must do it for yourself. I have people who bag on climbs they have never done. NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON! I don't require nor need your respect. Yes you do….or you would not be battling me and others on the web about a frickin sport climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I don't require nor need your respect. Yes you do….or you would not be battling me and others on the web about a frickin sport climb. Huh? Let me also recommend a class in logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Again, you need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. No apology is needed. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs. You are wrong Joseph. It is an "opinion" you have. I do not share your "opinion", nor do about 90% of all other climbers I'd imagine. If Harding had listened to the "Agencies and Authorites" El Cap might still be off limits to all climbers. In my "opinion" none of your remarks hold up to scrutiny, as they are only your "opinion". If it is true that as a community we should reach consensus before we do such an radical act as removing the protection on an existing route, or even changing single bolt on any route. If that is truly the case, then this needs to go a significantly longer distance via discussion only to reach that consensus. You are a good and descent person Joseph, but you might entertain the idea that you are wrong in your opinion, and that everybody else, who wants it to be left alone and in place, is right. That is the way I feel abou it, and o matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. BTW: this is the way this route looks. Photo Dave Burdick. Pretty f*en sweet looking. What kind of "community" would get behind a "climb" that jeopardizes access to a wilderness area? What kind of "community" could possibly rubber stamp such obvious disrespect for not only the law but also the very spirit of wilderness preservation? What kind of "community" would knowingly equate itself to an off-road vehicle club by advocating the transformation of lawfully protected alpine landscapes with a trail of human engineering and debris? What kind of "community" would turn its back on its own proud tradition of bold, exploratory, minimal-impact climbing? If 90% of climbers are behind such an act (and I seriously doubt that "statistic"), then I'll be thrilled to see the next alpine sport-climbing project go up....the one that finally gives land managers no choice other than to kick the entire "community" and their horse-shite perversion of mountaineering out of wilderness areas altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 What kind of "community" would get behind a "climb" that jeopardizes access to a wilderness area? What kind of "community" could possibly rubber stamp such obvious disrespect for not only the law but also the very spirit of wilderness preservation? Obvious disrespect? You telling me you have never broken the speed limit? bullshit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I don't require nor need your respect. Yes you do….or you would not be battling me and others on the web about a frickin sport climb. Huh? Let me also recommend a class in logic. Kevbone: Do you actually think this whole discussion is about personal respect, or perhaps your favorite default explanation, "ego"? Get a clue. Here's another volume to add to your list: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Perhaps rather than speculating about the numbers feeling one way or the other, someone who knows how to do these things could set up a poll to see what the cc.c statistics would be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Kevbone: Do you actually think this whole discussion is about personal respect, or perhaps your favorite default explanation, "ego"? Get a clue. Here's another volume to add to your list: Here is something you are familiar with.... And one more thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Sharing opinions can great as long as you understand others might not see things the same way as you. Chopping a route or threatening to chop a route or calling for the deed to be done is forcing your opinion on me. Forcing your opinion on others is disrespectful. Respect my opinion by leaving my route alone no matter how (fill in the blank) you might think it is as I respect yours even though I disagree with it. The FS has much much much more important things to think about like a shrinking budget then some climb near wilderness. Even if they tried to ban climbers from climbing do you honestly think they have the numbers to enforce it? Exactly. Using big fancy emotional charged words like "abortion" only make you sound like Bill OReilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Respect my opinion by leaving my route alone no matter how (fill in the blank) you might think it is as I respect yours even though I disagree with it. It doesn't work that way. If it's on public land, it's not YOUR rock/mountain ...it's OURS, and if other owners feel that you are desecrating it, we're going to make some noise or do something about it. The FS has much much much more important things to think about like a shrinking budget then some climb near wilderness. The Forest Service's job is to oversee public lands. It's part of their job to address such issues, even if YOU find it low priority. Even if they tried to ban climbers from climbing do you honestly think they have the numbers to enforce it? Exactly. That's exactly not the issue. Using big fancy emotional charged words like "abortion" only make you sound like Bill OReilly O'Reilly seems to have many fans. I prefer the terms "atrocity" or "abomination" myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 No you won't. You guys have been pitching threats for years but have yet to chop a bolt... and if you have you won't own up to it... hell you won't even post under your real name. You 3 are the climbing equivalent of crotchety old men. You sit around and piss and whine and cry about how damn kids these days don't respect the real values and traditionals of your time and reminisce about how much better thing used to be... but you’ll never get off the porch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ya, but John doesn't he seem like a virile stud when he tries to sound like a rebel over the internet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 No you won't. You guys have been pitching threats for years but have yet to chop a bolt... and if you have you won't own up to it... hell you won't even post under your real name. You 3 are the climbing equivalent of crotchety old men. You sit around and piss and whine and cry about how damn kids these days don't respect the real values and traditionals of your time and reminisce about how much better thing used to be... but you’ll never get off the porch. Holy crap well spoke..... :tup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 No you won't. You guys have been pitching threats for years but have yet to chop a bolt... and if you have you won't own up to it... hell you won't even post under your real name. Don't pretend you know what we're up to. Are we required to report to you? And you know why most people don't use their real names on the internet? it's because they choose to remain somewhat anonymous amongst a bunch of strangers, at least several of whom seem to believe that violence settles arguments. (Didn't you, yourself post for years under some other name?) It's the same reason that some of the bolt-choppers we know work in stealth. You 3 are the climbing equivalent of crotchety old men. I assume you're talking about me, pope and Joseph...I've never met the latter but I agree almost wholeheartedly with what he says on this topic. Now let's talk about YOU. I replied to your comments above and instead of offering a rebuttal, you start calling us names...I guess you had nothing better to say? You sit around and piss and whine and cry about how damn kids these days don't respect the real values and traditionals of my time and reminisce about how much better thing used to be. Lots of folks calling themselves "climbers" these days seem to be ethically and environmentally ignorant. We can reminisce about a clean-climbing revolution that partially fizzled when the dumb-downed attractions of sport-climbing became the dominant paradigm, or how a "leave few traces" philosophy is now the mantra of hikers and other outdoor enthusiasts but has apparently been lost on many climbers who feel they can drill any chunk of public rock that amuses them. And we can dream about and work on a future where climbing cleans up its act. ... but you’ll never get off the porch. You really have no idea! You got your "Raindawg", "pope" and "Joseph" spy-cams set up? Got time to go into the mountains when you're busy all day monitoring us? How about some substantive comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Then lets go climbing. You can even pick the route 503.758.5772 I climb. A lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 It's the same reason that some of the bolt-choppers we know work in stealth. No Rain....if you moralize about this shit in the open, then you better chop in the open or you are a huge PUSSY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Then lets go climbing. You can even pick the route 503.758.5772 I climb. A lot. No thanks. I can't imagine that we'd have a very good time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 It's the same reason that some of the bolt-choppers we know work in stealth. No Rain....if you moralize about this sh*t in the open, then you better chop in the open or you are a huge PUSSY. Are we back in Jr. High School???? Sit down and raise your hand when you have something of substance to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 No you won't. You guys have been pitching threats for years but have yet to chop a bolt... and if you have you won't own up to it... John, for me it's a case of NIMBY, if it were on what I considered my 'turf' it would never have lasted long enough for the FS to have found out about it. That the locals up north couldn't do the same I find disapointing. The the AF didn't immediately dispatch a letter of apology whether the route was chopped or not in a community effort I find incredulous. And if I chop something you'll know about it. You 3 are the climbing equivalent of crotchety old men. You sit around and piss and whine and cry about how damn kids these days don't respect the real values and traditionals of your time and reminisce about how much better thing used to be... but you’ll never get off the porch. Then lets go climbing. You can even pick the route. I climb. A lot. I'm off the porch 3-4 times a week monitoring Peregrines. I'd love to go climbing, but I'm way out of shape as pretty much every minute of my free time is spent doing this instead so I can go climbing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 The overwhelming majority of the community which the AF represents is accepting of the route. That's why it still exists. That's why it hasn't been chopped. You 3 and your opinion represent a very very small majority of the community. That's okay... we don't have to agree. But chopping the route is forcing your opinion on the rest of us. Which isn't okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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