minx Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 the other moderators will love me for this. underneath all the debates, i still don't know why people think chopping bolts does any good. 1) it doesn't restore the rock back to its original condition. there is a scar left behind. 2) half the time people seem to leave manky old bolts half sticking out. that's not safe at all 3) its also not safe when people who don't know the route has been partially chopped to get a few bolts up only to find out they're screwed. if it returned the rock to its original state, theres many places that i would support the argument but as it is i don't see the point. Quote
catbirdseat Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 You aren't making any points that haven't been made before. Why bring this up now? Quote
lI1|1! Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 re 2) and 3) climbing is not safe anyway. that's some pretty stupid logic Quote
snoboy Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 It is possible, if the job is done properly to make it very difficult to see where the old bolt was. It may not return the rock to it's pristine original state, but it restores the climb to it's original state. I think that more useful than chopping bolts, is the threat of chopping. If the community upholds that retrobolting will be chopped, then there is less chance that people will waste their time putting in unwanted bolts. Dru has a good point. Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Chopping bolts or just stealing hangers is an attempt to say "I'm better than you". The resultant response is, "You think you are better than me". As usual, most situations in the real world can always be related to a single episode of Seinfeld. Quote
billcoe Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 the other moderators will love me for this. underneath all the debates, i still don't know why people think chopping bolts does any good. If you are still ignorant with the plethora of information available and the endless arguments that have been postulated over and over and over and over and over and over - then it must be that you are just too damn stupid to ever figure it out. This arguement is so old and so beat..... So can you explain why anyone should even bother trying now? What a total friggan pointless waste of time that would be. Have a nice day! Bill Quote
kevbone Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 the other moderators will love me for this. underneath all the debates, i still don't know why people think chopping bolts does any good. If you are still ignorant with the plethora of information available and the endless arguments that have been postulated over and over and over and over and over and over - then it must be that you are just too damn stupid to ever figure it out. This arguement is so old and so beat..... So can you explain why anyone should even bother trying now? What a total friggan pointless waste of time that would be. Have a nice day! Bill Well said.... Minx....to answer your original question.....the point of chopping bolts is pure and simple.....ego....nothing more. PS ....nice troll Quote
ivan Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 maybe it's just that classic adage? when you got a hammer, everything looks like a nail? maybe when you got a bolt-cutter, every bolt looks unnecessary? Quote
billcoe Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Sorry, if a picture says a thousand words, this is really what I meant about this subject. Quote
catbirdseat Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 ...the point of chopping bolts is pure and simple.....ego....nothing more. PS ....nice troll There is no more succinct way to put it. Quote
kevbone Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 ...the point of chopping bolts is pure and simple.....ego....nothing more. PS ....nice troll There is no more succinct way to put it. Quote
G-spotter Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 So let's say I went out and placed a line of bolts spaced three feet apart all the way up Diedre, right next to the crack. I conclude from you guys remarks that there wouldn't be any point in chopping it? Quote
sk Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 it is not just ego IMHO... there are times when chopping becouse a neccisary evil. If an area has be declared a bolt free zone (no anchors, not bolts no sport climbs, JUST adventure climbing) then i believe if a person goes to that area and bolts a route, it needs to be cleaned up. there are times when an area becomes to over bolted and it becomes unsafe to try and add *more easy routes* to an already over crowded wall. often those routes are ugly and uninteresting and anything that is there could be top roped from and anchor on either side it needs to be cleaned up. I think that anyone who goes out on a whim and chops bolts, who has not talked with the majority of other climbers in an area is making a mistake. no one owns the rock, we all have to share and play nice. but respecting the ethic of an area, and havig a bit of pride in bolting a ROUTE rather than just drilling some bolts on a wall are important things to consider, as is the safety of other climbers. ---yes yes i know i always get sucked into this. and yes i would like to see some bolts choped and routes removed from some of my favorite areas. but it is a war that can not be won. having seen what cah happen when a bolt war begins... well it just makes me sad. the real loser is mother nature. everyone should just climb cracks Quote
minx Posted June 1, 2007 Author Posted June 1, 2007 look my original point was this: everyone talks about which climbs should be chopped. and what's wrong with HOW it was bolted. no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. and those that chop never acknowledge that there are problems with that solution to the problem. just had a debate with someone over this recently about one of our local sport areas. Quote
Dechristo Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. See Pope and Dwayner post catalogue Quote
sk Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 look my original point was this: everyone talks about which climbs should be chopped. and what's wrong with HOW it was bolted. no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. and those that chop never acknowledge that there are problems with that solution to the problem. just had a debate with someone over this recently about one of our local sport areas. it is one of those cases where we have to live with our human dicotimy. i love to climb. bolts are a necisary evil that allow me to do what i love. i even like sport climbing and prefer to lead sport cus leading trad makes me cry like a wee little lass... however when areas get more and more populare you lose some of that adventure feel they had when everyone and their pet cat didn't show up on saterday. we just all want to be specail some of us do that by puting up kick ass routes and some of us do that by wanting to climb kick ass routes. the only problem is that we all don't agree on what "kick ass" means Quote
mattp Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 People do what they do for a variety of reasons. For sure, anybody who takes it upon themself to chop bolts has decided they know best what is “good” for the crag, and that requires a certain egotistical orientation. However, the same can be said for the climber who put the bolts there in the first place - or at least the climber that takes it upon themself to retrobolt an existing climb. So, yes, maybe we do things like this to feel important. But that doesn’t really answer the question. We believe that we are doing the right thing, and your question is really about how one could think they are doing the right thing to remove a bolt and leave an empty hole or (worse) a bent or broken stud. I think most people who chop bolts are thinking they are making a statement about a trend in climbing that they disapprove of. Climbers have been doing this for fifty years - literally - and it is not always clear that they are really making the point they desire, but there is no doubt that at least some times and in some places a bit of bolt chopping has changed other climbers’ practices in the desired manner. In other places or at other times, it has only made a mess, fueled animosity, or worse. my article on this Quote
kevbone Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 If an area has be declared a bolt free zone (no anchors, not bolts no sport climbs, JUST adventure climbing) Who gets to "declare" it a bolt free zone? Quote
kevbone Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 So let's say I went out and placed a line of bolts spaced three feet apart all the way up Diedre, right next to the crack. I conclude from you guys remarks that there wouldn't be any point in chopping it? Sure there would be a point in chopping them but the “reason” behind the chop would be ego, nothing more. Quote
G-spotter Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 So let's say I went out and placed a line of bolts spaced three feet apart all the way up Diedre, right next to the crack. I conclude from you guys remarks that there wouldn't be any point in chopping it? Sure there would be a point in chopping them but the “reason” behind the chop would be ego, nothing more. Ummmm is there ego involved in picking up litter on the street too? Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. #1: Leave no trace. #2: There are (almost) no bolts on alpine routes, nor should there be. Particularly at certain crags in the NW where many people climb to prepare for alpine routes, the practice routes should not be bolted except where unanimously deemed necessary (anchors, runout face). #3: YES, bolts can get in the way of climbing, even if you are not using them. #4: Last weekend I led a well-protectable crack at Red Wing, MN that looks to have been been retrobolted and chopped more than once. Because climbers must lead it on gear, they will realize that bolts are not necessary on any climb like it, and will not be tempted to bolt (or support the bolting of) any climb like it. That is a clear virtue of chopping where appropriate (as defined by reasonably safe to lead cleanly). Quote
Bill_Simpkins Posted June 2, 2007 Posted June 2, 2007 the other moderators will love me for this. underneath all the debates, i still don't know why people think chopping bolts does any good. 1) it doesn't restore the rock back to its original condition. there is a scar left behind. 2) half the time people seem to leave manky old bolts half sticking out. that's not safe at all 3) its also not safe when people who don't know the route has been partially chopped to get a few bolts up only to find out they're screwed. if it returned the rock to its original state, theres many places that i would support the argument but as it is i don't see the point. Maybe someone put it on the best smedge. Quote
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