Rodchester Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 OK: So it is quite clear from the many posts on the long thread about a slide show at TNF that most, or at least manny cc:ers are not fans of TNF. I do agree that TNF makes a lot of junk, but they do still make some good stuff. I do agree that their innovation has become one of gimmicks, and not practical application. I do agree that they market agreesivly toward the sidewalk mountaineering crowd. So...my question is this. What company doesn't? I know that ArcTeryx was very innovative initally, great fit and finish on thier soft goods...but they have been bropught out. Did the owner sell-out in the sense that the company is now a junk manufacturer run by capitalist pigs? How about Mountain H-wear? Their stuff just seems like a slighly heavier, more bulky TNF product. I mean the sleeping bags are just about cookie cutter to TNFs. I like Cloudveil, but you simply cannot convince me that the owner is in it only for the love of the game. Would he not sell out in a minute if the price was right? Who wouldn't want to retire and do nothing but climb and travel? If one is so anti marketing/captialistic what do you wear in the mountains? Patagonia? Come on man, is there a company more directly marketed to the yuppie sidewalk mountaineering crowd? (Patagucci) Sierra Designs? Marmot? Lowe Apline? Just thinking out loud....your thoughts? Quote
hikerwa Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 It seems that you can't get away from the "machine" of money makin' clothing companies. I don't really care what brand I wear. I like Mtn. HW it fits me pretty good and is usually available for 50-75% off at Moutain Gear. If it works, is a good deal then I'll generally wear it. And if you really feel strondly about big name clothing, hell buy a sewing machine and start workin' maybe in 20 years someone will be callin' you a sell out. And while I'm on it, ponder this: Sell out = Success? I don't know. Quote
imorris Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 I'd agree with the Wild Things comment. Their stuff looks like crap. Quote
jblakley Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Good topic. I think the bottom line is anybody or anything that becomes successful tend to be branded a sellout or establishment. When Nirvana hit it big all of a sudden a lot of the bands of the same genre labeled them as sellout. I have no particular allegiance to any company. If I need a pc of gear or clothing I research it, ask around, look for a good price and buy it. That's capitalism. Do I care if fat, sedentary people on Capitol Hill start wearing the same stuff I do? No. Why should I? Quote
bobinc Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Yes, Wild Things still seems pure at heart and their equipment is definitely heavily weighted toward function. Still, paying $45 for a windshirt (even though it's the cheapest of the genre) raises my eyebrow a bit. Quote
Lambone Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Moonstone's also coming back around. Yes it's all too expensive, but only for suckers who pay full retail. At least get it on sale... Quote
freeclimb9 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 While clothing and equipment companies may appear to run seamlessly to a retail buyer, the behind-the-scenes story may be far different. TNF has had several managerial changes over the years, and plenty of swings in success (they damn near went down a few years ago). This has affected their marketing (TNF at Kmart, for example). Wildthings --I'd really like to know the background story there; the founder, John Bouchard, is out --he lives in Oregon--, and it's now run by Marie (his ex-wife?). In my one personal contact with her, she blew me away with her crassness and foul mouth. I can just imagine the volatility. A whole quiver of other companies are coming on to displace the weakened giant: Jagged Edge, Cloudveil, etc.. And some other more mainstream companies are trying to get a more edgy look like Columbia and LLBean. A lot will get shaken up in the whole outdoor product industry over the next few years because the market is over-saturated with companies and gear, the market isn't growing fast enough to support them all, and only the most ruthless will survive. Companies I think will survive are TNF, Mtn. Hardwear and Arc'Teryx. I'm plugging for all of the little guys since it's their innovation that pushes the quality and functionality overall. Personally, I go for the KISS principle, and buy gear based on price. I refuse to throw down $300 or more for a parka that will get shredded in a few years. Mostly, I've got MEC clothing plus a couple things from LLBean, and I think the quality is better than most. Quote
erik Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 it is easy to sit back and complain about most things....i know i have a tendency to do so sometimes..... but like blakley said this is capitalism, it is a market driven economy......i personally have my favorite companies, companies that i feel do their best to provide a decent product and maybe fulfill some idealistic liberal theory on saving the earth......but when i come down to it for me it is the best product for the money, luckily i have a well paying job so my possible selections are increased. though for the most part most products are so similar that you need to find the well priced one. some items taut certain fetures over others, but does it not all work???? i think it does.....but now a days i base some of my decisions on one principal...."half of being bitchin is lookin bitchin! (plus i used to date an ex-patti worker, cha-ching!) Quote
icegirl Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Re: wild things... for what it's worth... I've had the Ice Sac for a couple years now and love it. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 One the drive home from work after the “evil corporate world” thread started I listened to a story on NPR about high price perfumes. Seems that all the craft has gone out of making them. The life cycle of fragrances has shortened dramatically with new products being added yearly and sometimes monthly. The number of competitors has dropped precipitously as the old small scale high price producers have been bought out/driven out by the big boys. The result was called “High Price Mass Marketing.” Sound familiar? Quote
ScottP Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 On the bright side, there was that owner of Malden Mills(the Polartec manufacturer)who continued to pay his employees even after a devastating fire nearly destroyed the plant. The gesture cost him millions, but his response to why was, "...I consider my workers an asset, not a liability." They were so appreciative that after production resumed, they nearly doubled the output of yardage per week, working 25 hour days to do so. Quote
icegirl Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 I had not heard about that... That ROCKS! makes me want to go buy polartec... Oh wait, I already have tons. Quote
Maurice Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 For the people who complain about the prices: Have you ever tried sewing something? I don't dispute some of it may be overpriced, especially when made in third world countries, but doing the kind of sewing involved with a product like an Arcteryx amazes me. Quote
Doug Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 FWIW, I tend to stay away from TNF clothes because I don't agree with the mass market saturation that they do. I almost bought a Nuptse down jacket over the holidays at the TNF outlet store in Bend ($92.00). I think I couldn't pull the trigger because I just don't like their marketing appeal. Either that or I couldn't talk my wife into letting me. It looked to be a fine garment. I've worn Moonstone stuff for years now. While making an inquiry to them about local dealers, I was informed that they now send some of their seconds to the Pacific Trail outlet store in North Bend. I called out there and they had some pretty damned good prices. Pacific Trail is Moonstones current parent company. Quote
Figger_Eight Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 I agree with the above: success doesn't mean selling out. Arcteryx decided to join another successful outdoor company, not one that makes cheap backpacks and bras (Vanity Fair). Getting bigger doesn't necessarily mean quality will be compromised - Patagonia, Marmot and Mtn. Hardwear are examples of that. I encourage you to take a look at what each company stands for and how they prove it. I'm involved with some non-profits who are at the receiving end of Patagonia and Mtn. Hardwear's generosity. Look at Patagonia's environmental stand and compare it to TNF's sponsorship of a gas guzzler. True - it's all as expensive as shit...but if you pay retail for something, you're just too plain lazy to look for deals. Quote
mtngrrrl Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 Like most people, I have a mix of everything. I have to think to come up with the manufacturers because I really don't give a rat's ass. I think the sidewalk crowd will buy whatever they notice as being cool. As long as climbing mountains is considered mainstream cool, so will be looking like you climb mountains. I'm not totally "anti marketing/captialistic", but ever since TNF became the sorority uniform, even I've gotten annoyed. Fake TNF is quite the thing to wear in Nepal, btw. My friend bought some "genuine TNF" fleece pants from a Tibetan trader. They're black, but the inside of the pockets are leopard print. Maurice, I can sew, and you're right. It takes a bit of time and it would be difficult to make a quality piece of gear. Beyond the stitching, we ordinary consumers wouldn't have easy access to high tech fabrics and for that matter, fabric is also pretty pricey. So are industrial sewing machines. I've made my own ski bags from felt and nylon, but I wouldn't venture into anything more technical. Quote
Rodchester Posted January 18, 2002 Author Posted January 18, 2002 How about those genuine TNF pants being a leopord print inside and out? Quote
Dru Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 I like what Mugs Stump said to TNF executives back in the late 80's: "You guys aren't paying attention. I'm on your fucking sponsored team and I dont even use a TNF pack or clothing - cause it SUCKS!" Too bad the lesson didnt last for those guys. Cause TNF still, or again, sucks... Quote
hikerwa Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 Actually, you can buy all of the "high-tech" materials Gore-Tex, Polartec and all that can be found easily, but it is very expensive to buy 5 yards of Gore-Tex, fleece is a little cheaper. I once made a fleece jacket from Polartec I bought in Seattle, worked pretty good, but I don't think that I could sew up and heat tape a goretex jacket.... Quote
jules Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 Don't want to burst any bubbles but...... Moonstone - owned by Pacific TrailPacific Trail - owned by London FogPatagonia - uses cheap labor in El Salvador (and probably elsewhere) Quote
erik Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by jules: Don't want to burst any bubbles but...... Patagonia - uses cheap labor in El Salvador (and probably elsewhere) i heard that the clothes are made in the same factory as hacky sacks.....i guess that really is california style...... Quote
willstrickland Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by jules: Don't want to burst any bubbles but...... Moonstone - owned by Pacific TrailPacific Trail - owned by London FogPatagonia - uses cheap labor in El Salvador (and probably elsewhere) Yeah, but for how long? Moonstone's been bought and sold more than once in the last 4 years. It's cool sometimes because they seem to clear out their stock when they get sold and you can get stuff really cheap, but it sucks when they quit making some of their best stuff. I've got a pair of their Evolution pants that are the bomb, Scholler dryskin extreme, kind like those LL Bean guide pants, but with better features/attention to detail. I talked with a CS rep at Moonstone last week and they don't intend to make them again and don't have any old stock...bummer. As for the 'gucci being made in a hacky-sack factory, that's probably a good thing, I've never been able to completely destroy a leather hacky-sack even after years of kicking it around it the dirt. Quote
climberted Posted January 18, 2002 Posted January 18, 2002 I'm surprised that no one has mentioned marmot. They are still an employee owned company and make good stuff. Plus, they had their biggest line change in 15 years this year so all of the jkts and pants are going to be new. Quote
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