dan_e Posted November 20, 2001 Posted November 20, 2001 Below is an en email I sent to BD: I was wondering if you could tell me how strong the connection of the spike to the shaft is on both the black prophets and on the cobra's? I heard the spike is 'glued on' to the shaft on the cobra's, is this correct? Response from Tommy Chandler at BD: quote: Thanks for writing. The heads on all of BD's tools employ an extremely strong, high tech glue bond to connect the heads and spikes to the shaft. While at first this may seem like a not so strong method, time and testing has proven this to be the superior choice. In fact, the rigors of the BD Ice Axe testing have become somewhat legendary around here. Here's the basics of how we do it- first we take one tool from the batch (~300) and cool it to below freezing, then take it outside and beat it against then curb 150 times each on the pick and hammer, then bring it back inside and perform the standard CEN test for all ice tools, at which point all other tools on the market would be begging for mercy. This includes a three point bend, and pulling out of the pick-like you would on a climb, and lastly we try to pull the head off- which usually breaks the shaft or shuts the machine down at over 5000 lbf. I know of very few, if any, tools that can withstand this kind of punishment. Then, every tool in the batch is tested end to end to 1000 lbs. I posted this in response to some that may have thought the spike could not hold any weight. I've always clipped into the spike on my X-15's and now on my Black Prophets while setting up belays, ect. I've never counted on them holding much, but from BD is saying even the glue on spikes are quite strong. I know my tools (the non-cf black prophets) have two beefy rivets that attach the spike to the shaft and this may appear to be a safer/stronger way to attach the spike, but in the end in may not be. I feel it's important to have as much of the facts as possible when commenting on the strength and or safety of climbing gear. For the most part We have to rely on the manufacturer of the gear to insure it is safe, since most of us do not have the means to test gear beyond what it's capable of. Dan E. [ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: dan e ] Quote
Lambone Posted November 20, 2001 Posted November 20, 2001 Like I said, they are glued in! If you want to trust yor life and your partners life to some glue than go for it High tech glue my ass. Let's think about that (suposed)1000lb strength rating. How many Kn would that be? If you remember that 1 KN = abot 222 lbs, then the strenth of the head and spike is about 5 kn. Do you think that is a sufficient anchor to hold a lead fall? If so than I guess those 26Kn locking biners are a big waste of money. It's probably fine to use the tools as a back up, but definatley not your main point. Although, in reality you will eventually run out of gear and have to belay off your tools sometime. Not to dis BD but that testing meathod sounds like BS. "Hit the tool on the curb a hundred and fifty times." Not quite the scientific meathod I'm looking for when I'm putting my life on the line... Needless to say, Cobras kick ass! [ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote
David_Parker Posted November 20, 2001 Posted November 20, 2001 "I would never use a technical ice tool as part of a belay,"....Dan E I think everyone is in agreement that an ice tool should not be relied on for an anchor. However if climbing a hard, narrow ice route and your belay has minimum ice, certainly it could be a case where it is better than nothing. Lets say you are out of rope, have a narrow runnel of ice that won't take a screw and some rock all around but it's say Canadian rocky rock. You pound in a pin, place a marginal stopper or cam and you pound your tool in as far as it will go in the thin runnell. Now you equalize it all with a cordelette. Now the tool is part of the belay. Personally I'd clip the head over the spike if possible, but I'd go with the spike if that was the better choice to keep things in balance. The spike sounds like it is strong enough in this case. Either way, I think there are instances when using the tool as part of the belay makes sense!! Just try not to place the pick so it is under serious torque if pulled on in a fall. If you carry spectres, I'd use that over the tool. Bottom line, you have to be creative when it comes to pro ice climbing. I've used an abalakov as pro before. Basically that is why I climb ice with the attitude "the leader must not fall"!! I don't like testing this shit!!!! PS: Can someone tell me how to put a photo in a post. Not a link to a photo, but so it appears here automatically. Quote
Dru Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Parker - the photo has got to have a web link like http://www.photo.com/thisismyphoto.jpg. Then you post it with the image tags same as you would with a smiley like this: Quote
Dru Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Agree with David parker, I think it was Jo-Jo was soloing once and fell on a daisy chain on his belay which was 3 screws and his 3rd tool all equalized, he blew the screws and the tool held him (pick bent though). good thing he placed it eh! Quote
Lambone Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Glue...G.L.U.E. - thats all it is. Glue - you be the judge... Quote
David_Parker Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Often the glue is stronger than the material(s) you are bonding....wood, concrete, plastic, fiberglass, marriage...... Quote
CascadeClimber Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Okay, no one else brought this up, so I will. There is a difference between pounds-force and pounds-mass. They are not interchangeable. Thusly, they cannot be converted to newtons the same way. Newtons are a measure of force, not mass. Unfortunately our crappy English system of units makes this all more complicated that it should be, not to mention costing me more than a few tenths on my GPA, and the whole Hubble debacle. I don't suppose that the friendly BD rep happened to mention whether he was talking pounds-force or pounds-mass? Loren-used-to-be-an-engineer Quote
dan_e Posted November 21, 2001 Author Posted November 21, 2001 Okay, let me be more specific: I do often clip the tool into the belay, but only as a backup, not as part of the main belay (usually 22 cm ice screws). It never hurts to have more pieces in, but I don't exactly rely on the tool as being part of the belay. As for the continuing glue issue, I agree with DP. Besides, even if you are not using the tool as part of a belay, you are still using a tool where the head and spike are glued on, which means you are trusting your life to that very same glue! Dan E. Quote
Lambone Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Dru: Agree with David parker, I think it was Jo-Jo was soloing once and fell on a daisy chain on his belay which was 3 screws and his 3rd tool all equalized, he blew the screws and the tool held him (pick bent though). good thing he placed it eh! Huh? Fell on a daisy chain on the belay while soloing??? Thats odd... Loren-The BD catolog claims that 1KN = 224.8 lb force.As for whay the Rep meant, I'm not sure. Sometimes I will bury my tool and clip a rope into it while placing a screw. I do this when I'm getting gripped - not sure if it would hold or not, but it helps my nerves. I usualy use my tools to back up an anchor as well (might as well right?), but I'd be scared to rely on them as the main point. This is a good discusion, as I have often wondered what other people do. Takersleezy... Quote
David_Parker Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 OK, here's another question directly related to newtons and ice screw belays. Assuming you have a two screw equalized belay and your tool(s) is/are hooked up as a "backup" and you are belaying the second coming up, do you belay directly off the anchors with munter or reverso (less dynamic) or do you belay off your harness with rope running through anchor down to second (more dynamic)? Obviously we know the answer for when the belay is for the leader going up. Does one (single) or two (half) ropes change your opinion? Quote
chriss Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 I think there is some minor confusion of measurement units here. I'm not sure of the unit BD is using " lbf ". But, remember a pound is not a measure of mass, it is a measure of force. You step on the scale, you weigh 176 lbs. This is earth's gravity pulling you toward it with a measure of 176 lbs. You weigh 80 Kg., you put 784 KN of force on the scale. I think he's saying 5000lbs force. chris Quote
Lambone Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by David Parker: OK, here's another question directly related to newtons and ice screw belays. Assuming you have a two screw equalized belay and your tool(s) is/are hooked up as a "backup" and you are belaying the second coming up, do you belay directly off the anchors with munter or reverso (less dynamic) or do you belay off your harness with rope running through anchor down to second (more dynamic)? Obviously we know the answer for when the belay is for the leader going up. Does one (single) or two (half) ropes change your opinion? Hmmm...thats a good question, infact I was thinking about the same thing earlier today. I think that it ultamitely comes down to the quality of the screw placements. If they are in good ice(even stubbys) than they should be plenty adequate to hold the highest forces that a falling second could possibly generate(which isn't very high). You could hang a truck off two equalized screws placed in good ice. If the screw placements are crap than you have something to worry about. Better hope you have a good stance, and you better give as dynamic a belay as possible. Maybe even a hip belay. Do what ever you can to avoid weighting the anchor, and DO NOT clip the rope through it as a directional. Then find a new belay before starting the next pitch. If you belay off your harness, remember that running the rope through the anchor as a directional will double the forces that that anchor has to support, it will be holding both of you! Two 1/2 ropes would be less dynamic than one single. If you wanted more dynamicness, just belay the second up with one of the two strands. Thats my opinion, but I would be interested to hear if anyone thinks otherwise. I love talking about this techy B.S. Spray gets old quick... [ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote
chriss Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 OOOPS Major typo. 80 kg= 784 Newtons. Not KN. Sorry. chris Quote
dan_e Posted November 21, 2001 Author Posted November 21, 2001 I know what you are saying Lambone, but glue or no glue, proof is in the testing. I do agree that gluing the spike on to the shaft seems scary and I am happy to see my two beefy rivets that hold the spike on to the shaft of my non-cf black prophets! As far as saving a partners life, I would never use a technical ice tool as part of a belay, nor do I think BD would suggest this. I am, at the very most relying on the spike to hold my body weight, which I am sure it is more than capable of doing. Hell, I remember my early days of leading steep ice, I got so pumped trying to place a fat snarg, that I had to clip into the spikes of both X-15's and place the screw on aid. I trusted the spikes then to hold my body weight and I would trust them now to do the same! Dan E. Quote
Lambone Posted November 21, 2001 Posted November 21, 2001 Yeah, than we agree- I said: "The spikes on the BD carbon fiber tools are just glued into place. They will not hold any type of falling force. Don't do it..." I never said they wouldn't hold body weight. Anyway, thanks for checking that out for us. That is valuable information. BTW- BD claims that their leashes are not designed to hold more than body weight. Quote
allthumbs Posted December 3, 2001 Posted December 3, 2001 quote: Originally posted by dan e: Okay, let me be more specific: I do often clip the tool into the belay, but only as a backup, not as part of the main belay (usually 22 cm ice screws). It never hurts to have more pieces in, but I don't exactly rely on the tool as being part of the belay.As for the continuing glue issue, I agree with DP. Besides, even if you are not using the tool as part of a belay, you are still using a tool where the head and spike are glued on, which means you are trusting your life to that very same glue! Dan E. I agree with both of you guys and BD. Coming from the boat industry, when bolting on big outboard moters to boat transoms we'd drill the holes for the mounting bolts, squirt the holes full of Dow 5200 (which is a glorified glue of sorts) and bolt on the motor. Whenever we had to take one of those motors off that same transom at a later date, it would rip the damn fiberglass apart and remove big chunks of the transom along with the motor. So I agree with BD, some of the new adhesives are stronger and stickier that the product they're being used with. Quote
Ibex Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Thats my opinion, but I would be interested to hear if anyone thinks otherwise. I love talking about this techy B.S. Spray gets old quick... [ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Lambone, I agree with you 100% on the spray I am an Industrial Engineering student and one of the area's I am most interested in is Quality Control, statistical methods applied to engineering and manufacturing. So in regards to the testing methodology posted above: quote: then take it outside and beat it against then curb 150 times each on the pick and hammer, then bring it back inside and perform the standard CEN test for all ice tools, at which point all other tools on the market would be begging for mercy. This includes a three point bend, and pulling out of the pick-like you would on a climb, and lastly we try to pull the head off- which usually breaks the shaft or shuts the machine down at over 5000 lbf. I know of very few, if any, tools that can withstand this kind of punishment. Then, every tool in the batch is tested end to end to 1000 lbs. I cant say it is terribly great testing method: -There is a lot of room for tester bias in how hard they are hitting it against the curb (human operator getting tired, Big Bubba tests Mon, Wed, Fri and Lil' Suzie test on Tue and Thur). -how long it takes them (ie. the tool is presumably warming up during this time). -150 whacks on the pick and 150 whacks on the hammer/adze is representative of only about a half-day to a day of climbing. -They only have a sample size of one. BAAAAADDD! Now, to their credit, testing is extremely expensive (especially destructive testing of $300 ice tools) and climbing gear is NOT a high-profit margin enterprise (trust me, i work in a gear shop). Also, think of it this way, they are doing all of that abuse *BEFORE* doing the CE tests (which assume it passes) so really they are simulating what we might hope our battle-scared tools might do in the field. In an ideal world you could easily automate this test, remove the bias, and then model what a tool that is 1 year old, 3 years old, etc will do. YOu could even incorporate UV degredation, impacts, repeated loading (fatigue), etc. Keep in mind though, you as a consumer are going to have to pay for all of this. Who here hasn't already gasped when they looked at the price tag of a new BD Cobra....? Additionally, modern quality assurance is more than just an ad hoc test of a few pieces as the stuff rolls out the door. It is a comprehensive program from vendor selection (I am confident BD doesnt make its own glue or CF), and qualification, product and process design, manufacturing methods and technology, metrology, statistical process control, and finally, yes, they do break shit to validate what they knew from all of the previous steps. So dont be too quick to judge a process, just by looking at one small step (ie. how they break stuff), and ignore the big picture. The rest of it is VERY important in determining the outgoing quality of the product. As for you folks who are arguing the point of lb-mass (lb) vs lb-force (lbf), it is a moot point as long as you stay on earth. That aside, he SAYS in the quote above (read it carefully), that the "testing machine shuts down at 5000 lbf" <--- note units!!! In regards to whether or not you should trust the glued joints, I give them a thumbs up. As someone mentioned above, modern adhesives are FANTASTICALLY strong. In fact, the reason most glue joints fail, is not because the glue failed, but rather the material being glued failed (fiberglass broken, above). It is common practice to use glue that is much stronger than the material being bonded to ensure that joint is only limited in strength by the materials being bonded. Keep in mind this places significant importance on the gluing technique, surface preparation, cleanliness, etc to take advantage of miraculous glues (reference above where we discussed the importance of evaluating the entire process). In my personal opinion the rivets on the old BD BP's etc where simply a form of 'procedural insurance'. As far as the idea of using the tools to back up a sketchy belay. It can't hurt. It will probably help, clip through the hole in the head if possible, and no they werent designed to do that. Questions, comments, winning lotto tickets...? Cheers Shawn "Friends dont let friends climb on CM"- sorry, I am biased... Quote
texplorer Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 A gear store. . . in Ames, Iowa???? Do you guys have alot of killer ice around there? Quote
Lambone Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 Damn, and I thought I was a tech wennie... Nice info Ibex. You guys climb on old grain cilos plastered in ice right?!? Have Fun! Quote
Ibex Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 quote: Originally posted by texplorer: A gear store. . . in Ames, Iowa???? Do you guys have alot of killer ice around there? Long story, but I am not currently in Iowa, I am in upstate New York waiting for the weather to turn cold so I can do some ice climbing up in the Aidirondacks. It is little known, but the 'daks' have a pleatora of ice routes. It is a naturally occuring Ouray up there. Granted mother nature doesnt plant routes in the same concentration as there is in Ouray, but there is a fantastic amount of ice in northern NY. The only downside is that the weather is not as reliably cold. I used to work at the gear shop in Ames IA, and now that I am temporarily in NY, I am working at another shop up here. I lived in Portland OR this summer, which is how I got hooked on CC.com. Lambone, worked with a bud of mine name Tim, also a prisoner...er student at Iowa State Univ. The closest ice to Ames IA is Minneapolis MN, or across the Wisconsin border (both about 4 hours drive). There are some silos turned climbing gyms in Illinois, and they DO put up a 120ft ice wall in the winter, but the season is pretty short. Shawn Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 Ibex where you gonna live next Tennessee? You should be swinging them tools in some fat ice real soon if you stay round that area Quote
Erwin Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 Nice to see an upstate Yank. If the weather gets cold, you should be all set up there in the Dacks. The ice and rock are great up there and the crowds are minimal. and i'm sure you'll make it to the Notch in VT and Lake Willougby. Its too bad you guys are having such a warm winter. My friens are still on rock out there in New Hampshire Quote
freeclimb9 Posted December 7, 2001 Posted December 7, 2001 an old thread picked up again. Units: a Newton is a unit of force (F=mA; force=mass*acceleration) in the "Système International d'Unités" (SI) convention, and is equivalent to a kg m/s**2 (kilogram meter per second squared). The acceleration due to gravity in SI units is 9.8 m/s**2. A "lb", or pound, is also, strictly speaking, a unit of force. However, often it is used to describe mass despite a "slug" being the unit of mass in the old skool English system. The folks at BD use "lbf" as a unit of mass, and there's 2.2 of em per kilogram. So, Tommy Chandler at BD said the head on cobras often holds with 5,000lbf on it (i.e. 2272 kg, or 22kN --that's kN-kiloNewton, or 1000 Newtons), but who the hell tries to pull the head of a tool directly off? That's not how stress is placed on the tool, and the 5000lbf figure is not representative of the strength, or holding power, of the tool when placed in ice. A few years ago, Craig Luebben tested some tools by putting weight onto the spike, and they all broke at from 1000 to 12000 lbs (that's "lbf" in BD units). That's not a huge amount. That said, I don't think it's a bad idea to incorporate tools into a belay. But as the sole anchors, the belay would be frail. One more observation: carbon fiber laminants and metal have different expansion coefficients; they swell and contract different amounts when heated and cooled. A mechanical method of joining carbon fiber shafts to ice-tool heads is prudent, but I only know of one manufacturer that does that (Hugh Banner). Quote
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