Blackwater

[JosephH]

... but you seem to be consistently - I'll go ahead and say it - anti American. Could have something to do with your "affiliations"?

 

So, how old are you Fairweather (KKK and a few others)? 42 or under? If so, exactly why aren't you serving in Iraq? If you're older, and have kids, have you or are you going to encourage them to enlist if the are of age or as soon as they come of age? Again, you folks talk a lot of shit, but when and where do you back it up with your life and that of your family?

[Jim]

Patriotism is the last refuge for lack of an argument.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

So, how old are you Fairweather (KKK and a few others)? 42 or under? If so, exactly why aren't you serving in Iraq? If you're older, and have kids, have you or are you going to encourage them to enlist if the are of age or as soon as they come of age? Again, you folks talk a lot of shit, but when and where do you back it up with your life and that of your family?

 

We have a volunteer army, and our government recruits. Nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to enlist, and everyone knows if you do, you'll likely see combat in Iraq. That about sums up my position. YOU just want to make it into something else.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Patriotism is the last refuge for lack of an argument.

 

Patriotism is not the issue, numb-nuts.

[Adam13]

BW has caused so many SEALs to leave service that the navy has raised their re-enlistment bonus and started bringing back people who have failed buds in the past.

[JosephH]

No, I just want to know when you back up your bullshit with service. You're exactly right - it is a volunteer army - the only question is why haven't you and Fairweather volunteered...?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

No, I just want to know when you back up your bullshit with service. You're exactly right - it is a volunteer army - the only question is why haven't you and Fairweather volunteered...?

 

I would never risk my life to preserve the freedoms of an ungrateful, anti-american a-hole like you.

[JosephH]

Well there you have it, I did serve so assholes like you could avoid it and talk all tough and patriotic while ducking serving themselves.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Well there you have it, I did serve so assholes like you could avoid it and talk all tough and patriotic while ducking serving themselves.

 

as a REMF, right?

[chucK]

Look, I'd way rather have the government spending too much money on some highly-trained soldiers when the alternative is coercing people to fight (via drafting my kids, luring high-schoolers with free video games, or backdoor drafting current enlistees who have already served their time and want out) then paying them shit.

 

Guess that shows what a tax and spend liberal I am. I'm really surprised the fiscally responsible/baby eater republicans on this board are so pro-Blackwater. This whole mess could be done a hell of lot more cheaply if we just started drafting poor people (i.e. those without college deferments).

 

What I don't like about this "Blackwater" business is that it appears we don't have a lot of control over these guys and they're making us look bad. That is very poor strategy in a "hearts and minds" guerilla war, and is going to end up just getting more people killed (Americans and Iraqis).

 

[dt_3pin]

Well there you have it, I did serve so assholes like you could avoid it and talk all tough and patriotic while ducking serving themselves.

 

as a REMF, right?

 

Better a REMF than a chickenhawk.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Better a REMF than a chickenhawk.

 

*yawn*

 

How about this - ONLY vets who saw combat can discuss Iraq - period. I'm sure that would exclude a lot of participants of this board. And let's apply this type of standard to other topics. Only home-owners can vote increases on property taxes. Only teachers can discuss education policy in the US. Only policemen can discuss law enforcement. Get my drift, asshole?

[Fairweather]

46. My son has signed up to serve upon his completion of college. Not really relevant - or any of your business. Your service does give you standing, but doesn't diminish mine. Don't you think it's ironic that the very ideal you were once (rightfully) helping to snuff out in southeast Asia lives on right here in the persona Jim, Treetoad, and others? And do you remember the same who cheered for your enemy in 1971?

[Fairweather]

I'm really surprised the fiscally responsible/baby eater republicans on this board are so pro-Blackwater.

 

You're creating an argument where none exists. Typical. The people we're supporting are Americans who are being unjustly convicted on this website and in the left blogosphere of atrocity. I couldn't give a fuck about Blackwater Inc. But I think it's wrong for the usual suspects here to assume, once again, that Americans are the bad guys.

[Off_White]

You and Serenity can go round and round with the semantics of employement and citizenship...

 

Thanks Joseph, I think that's the first time he and I have ever been lumped into the same group.

 

I wasn't saying that I thought privatizing the military is a great idea, just being a stickler about language. If the Sunnis hired Blackwater to snuff Shiites, then they would indeed be mercenaries. Same story if at some time in the future Shell Oil hires them to run Chevron out of Nigeria. If we were to hire one of those South African firms, they would be our mercenaries. As it stands, Blackwater's private soldiers are our employees, and they represent the US in the same way that my carpenters represent my company.

 

Fairweather, holding the representatives of our country to high standards, higher standards than others may exhibit, is far from anti-American. You can't be the good guys if your tactics are indistinguishable from the black hats.

[Fairweather]

 

Fairweather, holding the representatives of our country to high standards, higher standards than others may exhibit, is far from anti-American. You can't be the good guys if your tactics are indistinguishable from the black hats.

 

Not necessarily true:

 

Dresden, 1945

 

Tokyo, May 26 1945

 

a couple months earlier - same city

Edited October 3, 2007 by Fairweather

[Off_White]

Yeah. Right.

 

 

 

 

And of course, an oldie but a goodie from 1968

 

[Fairweather]

My Lai? I think Calley went to prison for that. There still? Would have burned too if the death penalty had been in place. Is it worse when its personal? Guys got medals for the pictures I posted - and killed far, far more than 500 villagers. FDR ordered. Still a darling of the left - and JosephH, no doubt.

[gertlush]

There was some controversy at the Canadian War Museum about area bombing:

 

The panel currently reads: “The value and morality of the strategic bomber offensive against Germany remains bitterly contested. Bomber Command’s aim was to crush civilian morale and force Germany to surrender by destroying its cities and industrial installations. Although Bomber Command and American attacks left 600,000 Germans dead and more than five million homeless, the raids resulted in only small reductions in German war production until late in the war.”

 

The dispute over the 68-word panel speaks to the controversy of area bombing itself, a tactic taken by British strategists to bring the war to Nazi Germany’s backyard. The Royal Air Force, which incorporated the Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons, bombed at night and deliberately targeted cities.

 

Dalhousie news

 

...Mind you sort of off topic. I guess the question really is whether the ends justify the means?

Edited October 3, 2007 by gertlush

[Fairweather]

...Mind you sort of off topic. I guess the question really is whether the ends justify the means?

 

That is exactly the question.

 

The bombing of Dresden was, ostensibly, to cover Russian ground advances and leave the retreating German army with nowhere to go. But many believe it was actually to demonstrate British and American air power to our not-soon-to-be Soviet allies.

 

The fire bombings of major Japanese cities left a (admittedly small) handful of American air crews requesting other duties when it became clear they were not being assigned military targets. Definitely a racial element involved, IMO.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Fairweather

[Off_White]

My Lai?

 

I can't help it, your citation of the firebombing of Dresden has caused me to come unstuck in time!

 

Yes Fairweather, my examples were all of atrocities that

were

prosecuted, of expectations of higher standards. Well, there were three examples, but two disappeared, perhaps the source objected to lending their bandwidth?

 

Granted, I think lots of folks believe that the Abu Ghraib prosecutions were more of a scapegoat facesaving operation.

[JosephH]

Well there you have it, I did serve so assholes like you could avoid it and talk all tough and patriotic while ducking serving themselves.

 

as a REMF, right?

 

No, actually, I spent 6 on, 6 off, 24x7 in a 5" 38 gunmount on a cruiser from 300yds to 2 miles off the North Vietnamese coast for just under a year, daily firing what came to be a bit shy of 400k rounds including the only attack on Haiphong harbor during the war. All this at a time when old 5" mounts were going-off self-destructing like so much popcorn. When I wasn't in the mount I was on Marine helicopters over NV looking for SAM sites for the night's mission.

 

Try again, and exactly why don't you support this war or our troops with your service and life?

 

 

[No. 13 Baby]

Bush et al. give chickenhawks like KKK reason to be unashamed.

 

 

[Doug]

So does anyone here think that Blackwater is being made a sacrificial lamb of sorts?

 

Fundamentally, I have no problem with a company like Blackwater existing and playing a role in a conflict where the U.S. has plenty of citizens around. In many cases it probably makes sense for guard details (e.g. strictly defensive) to be outsourced to a company that has the caliber of personnel they do. Even if every now and then one of them goes off an gets trigger happy, how are we who are sitting here in the comforts of our own homes spraying away on cc.com going to adequately judge whether or not them firing their weapons was really provoked? I mean shit, you can't depend on reliable witnesses in that culture; and in the environment they are in every moving vehicle is a potential offensive threat.

 

To me the issue about a company like that being there is that they may be there a little pre-maturely. As long as there is still a military operation in effect, only the military should be there performing that mission. I'm sure there are a hundred arguments against that out there, but hey it's just my opinion.

 

One item of interest, and I hate to drag this into a partisan debate (like it's not already), but go to the Fox News website. Not one mention of the Iraq War/Conflict. Not one mention of Blackwater. Go to CNN.com. 3 mentions of it, including the headline story. Now I know I'm labled as a flaming liberal tug job because I hate GW and I'm against THIS war, but I gotta tell you, I don't get fair and/or balanced from either of those sources.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Well there you have it, I did serve so assholes like you could avoid it and talk all tough and patriotic while ducking serving themselves.

 

as a REMF, right?

 

No, actually, I spent 6 on, 6 off, 24x7 in a 5" 38 gunmount on a cruiser from 300yds to 2 miles off the North Vietnamese coast for just under a year, daily firing what came to be a bit shy of 400k rounds including the only attack on Haiphong harbor during the war. All this at a time when old 5" mounts were going-off self-destructing like so much popcorn. When I wasn't in the mount I was on Marine helicopters over NV looking for SAM sites for the night's mission.

 

Try again, and exactly why don't you support this war or our troops with your service and life?

 

 

A perfect moment in time and space.