Blackwater

[Serenity]

Posting of images without direct ties to an event, and or emotive responses contribute nothing to the overall discussion. But hey, this is the internet, and CascadeCLIMBERS.

[canyondweller]

I don't know, that post would probably land him a job with the NY Times; 'discernment' is not their watchword.

[No. 13 Baby]

Not my fault if you can't connect the dots.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Nice try, junior. Keep the training wheels bolted on for a few more weeks.

 

a few weeks? try a few years.

[canyondweller]

Not my fault if you can't connect the dots.

 

There are no dots to connect, as Serenity implied. You cut and pasted a picture from an on-line news article, based on an 'Iraqi Government preliminary report...' [underline mine] Blackwater was not involved. Thus, you are attempting to draw a connection where none currently exists, while the rest of us are working on having an intelligent conversation (virendra7 excluded).

[No. 13 Baby]

I've got a couple Blackwater t-shirts around, somewhere. I'm sure you'd where it with pride.

 

File under "intelligent conversation."

[canyondweller]

You post a quote, which is grammatically correct, and comment with a sentence fragment. Hmmm...yep, keep the training wheels on.

[Serenity]

I've got a couple Blackwater t-shirts around, somewhere. I'm sure you'd where it with pride.

 

File under "intelligent conversation."

 

File under "User is now on ignore feature". Another one hand clapper.

[canyondweller]

File under "User is now on ignore feature". Another one hand clapper.

 

Now THAT'S refreshing! Thanks.

[No. 13 Baby]

Fits nicely with your "Blackwater controversy is now on ignore" feature.

 

I "where" your scorn as a badge of honor.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

File under "User is now on ignore feature". Another one hand clapper.

 

Now THAT'S refreshing! Thanks.

 

Exactemente! No 13. is like the guy who farts in the elevator... repeatedly. The ignore feature is like a nose plug.

[noliquidity]

"You can call back individuals with certain skills from IRR (Inactive Reserve), but once a guy retires out, then they don't owe any further obligation. I state once again that the majority of the high end contractors are retirees and in my mind are being paid fairly for the type of consulting work they are being asked to do, in the conditions they do it in, with the level of risk they face. These guys aren't your everyday Joe off the block looking for some GI Bill money, or some cheap thrill. Some of these guys are like the Olympians of warfare"

"There are tremendous advantages to being a soldier that contractors do not enjoy, in particular the mission sets. You're not going to see contractors actioning intelligence and conducting raid packages."

"Contractors are going to be standing around with an aimpoint glued to their foreheads waiting to take a bullet for some guy. Now if you paid them the same pay, which would you rather do? I'd rather be kicking a$$ and taking names."

 

 

Thats why I say up the pay scale in the armed services across the board and use a risk graded pay scale. Then institute the draft.(Trust me in my feild, regardless of my age, I'll probably be near the top of the list)-unless they disqualify me for my grammar and spelling skills. The draft will serve multiple purposes, not the least of which is to inject a serious does of reality to large percentage of the population whos main concern is where to get their next latte or how many Bud Light cans they can throw out the window as their driving

 

 

"Look at how much we pay pro sports players and what exactly do they contribute overall versus how much they get paid?"

 

This would be a great topic for another 13 page thread, huh.

 

 

"statistically MORE likely to be killed or injured in contracting work"

 

I dont know? But we all know the magic that can be worked with statitics though. It wouldnt suprise me if that were true. If they were within the DOD,would they be any more are less likely to be killed or injured. Statitics are a tough one.

 

 

"It appears that Blackwater's highly paid private security contractors are still more of a bargain to the taxpayer than government diplomatic security agents.

 

A House Committee on Oversight and Government Affairs report says that Blackwater bills the government $1,222 per security contractor per day in Iraq. That comes out to $446,030 per Blackwater guard per year.

 

By contrast, a single State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security agent in Iraq costs the taxpayer "nearly $500,000 a year," according to the Los Angeles Times. The Times cites Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security Richard Griffin as the source."

 

 

Citing excutive branch officials..... "cites Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security Richard Griffin as the source."....hmmm..... Among the loooong list of things of the things the Cheney/Bush neocon crew has either intentionally or unintentionally demolished in our country is executive branch credibility. You have to admit that even life long conservatives have difficulty believing what the executive branch puts out anymore. The credibility thing is no small matter either. Lets say they have intel that Pakistan or the Ukraine is rapidly destabizing, we would need to quickly gather support internationally to intevene. The international and US public response will be....uhhh, yea right President Bush, anything you say, we trust you to not bait and switch us with cherry picked and falsified intel..... The damage to our credibility is severe and will take probably decades to regain many nations trust. And yes, in the world we live in strongly depends on working with allies. The chain of events from Iraq are set in motion. Pull out a map, look at the countries surrrounding Iraq/Iran, look at each country geographically, resourse issues, their geopolitical goals, their present and potential future allies etc... I hope I'm wrong but this is just the beginning of something that is only going to get more complex and ugly as time moves forward. We need ALLIES that can TRUST us. By the way isnt Negroponte the Assistant Secratary of State now. Thats like letting a pyromaniac run a gas station. Check out his history, youll be proud that he is one of the faces representing our country. Man, I always start to fucking ramble on and on ....

 

You want to see things really start boil over in this country.? Supress their speech. Now STFUYMF

[ClimbingPanther]

is this thread seriously still alive? a new avatar springs up every other day to post here. I am skeptical of continuing the discussion unless both porter and G-spotter will post on this important thread.

[TREETOAD]

I've got a couple Blackwater t-shirts around, somewhere. I'm sure you'd where it with pride.

 

File under "intelligent conversation."

 

Actually in order for this to be a grammatically correct sentence it would read as follows

 

I have a couple of Blackwater t-shirts somewhere. I'm sure you would wear them with pride.

Edited October 10, 2007 by TREETOAD

[No. 13 Baby]

How dare you question the excellent Phi Beta Kappa credentials of Tucker's apologist!

[JosephH]

Look, the argument that there is no way the U.S. government can provide these services is ridiculous on the face of it. The answer wasn't privatizing these roles, it was expanding government services to include them. The U.S. government is fully capable of funding, recruiting, training, and deploying such services if it had an interest in fulfilling what the administration claims is a vital need. The DS and DSS could be completely revamped and possibly setup out from under DoS if necessary and it could just as easily be home for all that Blackwater does.

 

And now that Blackwater and others have established themselves and their U.S. government contracts with costly U.S. ex-military personnel, just how long do you think it will be before they start replacing many of those high-cost U.S. resources with foreign ex-military resources who will work for some fraction of the current crew? Think it unlikely? Hell, it's already begun and it will be an inevitable move in the long run.

 

No matter how you slice it - this kind of outsourcing is incredibly bad policy unless you are into fostering corruption and having unaccountable resources at your disposal for tasks you'd rather not be associated with. Contract interrogators in particular are an abhorent concept which, like rendition, is simply a way of simultaneously denying and promoting torture.

 

The entire affair is beneath the U.S. and simply part of a broad criminal conspiracy of neocon traitors. Simply put, all of these policies along with numerous administration efforts eroding the Constitution are an inexorable and despicable abdication to terror, not a defense against it.

[billcoe]

By the way isnt Negroponte the Assistant Secratary of State now. Thats like letting a pyromaniac run a gas station. Check out his history, youll be proud that he is one of the faces representing our country. Man, I always start to fucking ramble on and on ....

 

 

Whew, nice call on the international credibility thing someliquitidy. 100% called that right on the money. I also appreciate your restraint in not pulling forth the petroleum card and waving it in our faces concerning our initial Afghanistan attack.

 

Turned out that pre-attack Chevron had proposed a huge pipeline through Afghanistan from one of the other Ass-istans. The reserves available are huge.

Part of the story from 2001 link The Taliban rejected this great idea. They blocked our access to this oil.

 

It should come as no small surprise that Condi Rice was on the board of directors of Chevron before Bush tapped her, and she had in fact filled Reagans Secretary of State Geo. Schultz's spot on the Chevron board. She has helped construct a way for that project to take root, and we have benefited and can continue to drive gas hogs thanks to our military putting their asses on the line.

 

Course you pretty much know all of that whole invasion story and the supreme asswipe Bin Laden's role as well.

 

This is the side story, not widely known in the US, but true nontheless. Maybe it's not the side story....hmmm.

 

Anywho-

 

Pipeline was approved by the Karsai govenment early on and is full steam ahead. Don't necessarily think I'm complaining here by bringimg this out and talking about it. It will make our country stronger and I support that. Yet geo-politically, other countries see all of this and suspect our pure motives.....which on the other hand weakens us in several ways.

 

Thought that the last line of the story I linked, which parrots noliquiditys earlier post NAILS IT ON THE HEAD, the last line reads " True security, for all of us, can only be achieved by reducing our dependence on oil."

 

Edited: noliquiity, nevermind my saying you avoided the petroleum card as I was just re-reading this thread and saw you had eluded to this very thing in general terms couple pages back. Wow. You and I should meet and tie in sometime.

 

BTW: to all, good conversation here, thank you all for the various well presented viewpoints.

[canyondweller]

Look, the argument that there is no way the U.S. government can provide these services is ridiculous on the face of it. The answer wasn't privatizing these roles, it was expanding government services to include them. The U.S. government is fully capable of funding, recruiting, training, and deploying such services if it had an interest in fulfilling what the administration claims is a vital need. The DS and DSS could be completely revamped and possibly setup out from under DoS if necessary and it could just as easily be home for all that Blackwater does.

 

I expect that you know, better than I, how lethargically the Government moves. I don't think the DSS, or the DoS, could produce fully trained agents in the timeframe necessary.

[JosephH]

Look, the argument that there is no way the U.S. government can provide these services is ridiculous on the face of it. The answer wasn't privatizing these roles, it was expanding government services to include them. The U.S. government is fully capable of funding, recruiting, training, and deploying such services if it had an interest in fulfilling what the administration claims is a vital need. The DS and DSS could be completely revamped and possibly setup out from under DoS if necessary and it could just as easily be home for all that Blackwater does.

 

I expect that you know, better than I, how lethargically the Government moves. I don't think the DSS, or the DoS, could produce fully trained agents in the timeframe necessary.

 

Sort of like personnel armor and MRAPs - they knew they were starting this war and had plenty of time upfront to ramp up the necessary resources - if, in fact, Rumsfeld and Cheney felt they were necessary. Funny how contract security and intelligence contractors were considered necessary from the outset, but armor and MRAPs weren't. The government was fully capable of redesigning DS/DSS and ramping up hiring the very folks Blackwater and others hired for the same amount of money in the same amount of time. It's simply a question of will on the part of the Congress and Executive.

[STP]

I expect that you know, better than I, how lethargically the Government moves.

 

Yes, some might recall their understanding of the Hegelian dialectic--thesis-antithesis-synthesis or if looked at in a political sense, problem-reaction-solution, one example of which is shown by the Katrina fiasco. Government appears to show its ineptitude but they're not there to actually 'rescue' the people. Authorities step in to assume control in actions such as disarming citizens. Blackwater plays a prominent role even though it was stated that only official law enforcement would be armed.

 

So, what's going on? It was more than a dry run. Tinhat or not?

[Fairweather]

 

The entire affair is beneath the U.S. and simply part of a broad criminal conspiracy of neocon traitors.

 

 

Hmmm. Let me see if I have this right. It's the Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons.

 

I guess if you say it enough, it's true! But we all know who you think "The Neocons" really are...don't we. There's a racist side to your belief system that you need to come to terms with. Not to mention a fair amount of paranoia and ego.

[joblo7]

 

The entire affair is beneath the U.S. and simply part of a broad criminal conspiracy of neocon traitors.

 

 

Hmmm. Let me see if I have this right. It's the Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons. The Neocons.

 

I guess if you say it enough, it's true! But we all know who you think "The Neocons" really are...don't we. There's a racist side to your belief system that you need to come to terms with. Not to mention a fair amount of paranoia and ego.

is that your rebuttal or are you just spittin'.

[pdawg]

What's not to get about the neocons? Throughout Clinton's second term, they clamored for the invasion of Iraq, claiming it was our time to revel in military supremacy. Failing to sell boldface imperialism, they sidled into the Whitehouse in 2001, claimed themselves experts and proceeded to turn everything to shit.

 

They failed to prevent 9-11. They didn't prosecute the war in Afghanistan to its end. They began the disaster that is Iraq.

What, exactly, did they do well?

 

Oh, yeah, they made a killing. In arms, in consultations, in "delayed compensation packages", they made out like bandits. And when they leave their jobs, seconds ahead of subpoenas, investigations, charges of serial perjury, they'll find comfort in the loving arms of the oil-and-arms funded think tanks that first shat them out upon the stage.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2007 by pdawg

[mattp]

Fairweather and the rest of the rah rah croud around here told me, back in 2002, that I was believing in fantasy conspiracy theories to say that the Bush administration was misrepresenting the case for invasion. They have repeatedly said any criticism of the motives behind our operation in Afghanistan is sheer over the top paranoia and I haven't seen one of them really complain that we didn't catch Bin Ladin. They have yet to complain about the no-bid contracts granted Halliburton and all the other contractors - including Blackwater.

 

Apart from all the issues related to whether it was a good idea to blow off all our allies and thumb our nose at the U.N., or whether it is a good idea to promote torture, these guys refuse to acknowledge the idea that there could be financial exploitation of the situation and - yes - criminal conspiracy behind any of this.

 

The information is right there in front of us and has been all along. Just what kind of rebuttal would you expect now - but "I don't hear you ... nyah nyah nyah ... naive liberals ... nyah nyah nyah ... hate America ... nyah nyah ..."

[Serenity]

Look, the argument that there is no way the U.S. government can provide these services is ridiculous on the face of it. The answer wasn't privatizing these roles, it was expanding government services to include them. The U.S. government is fully capable of funding, recruiting, training, and deploying such services if it had an interest in fulfilling what the administration claims is a vital need. The DS and DSS could be completely revamped and possibly setup out from under DoS if necessary and it could just as easily be home for all that Blackwater does.

 

And now that Blackwater and others have established themselves and their U.S. government contracts with costly U.S. ex-military personnel, just how long do you think it will be before they start replacing many of those high-cost U.S. resources with foreign ex-military resources who will work for some fraction of the current crew? Think it unlikely? Hell, it's already begun and it will be an inevitable move in the long run.

 

No matter how you slice it - this kind of outsourcing is incredibly bad policy unless you are into fostering corruption and having unaccountable resources at your disposal for tasks you'd rather not be associated with. Contract interrogators in particular are an abhorent concept which, like rendition, is simply a way of simultaneously denying and promoting torture.

 

The entire affair is beneath the U.S. and simply part of a broad criminal conspiracy of neocon traitors. Simply put, all of these policies along with numerous administration efforts eroding the Constitution are an inexorable and despicable abdication to terror, not a defense against it.

Ha-ha..you have some deep seated conspiracy theories rolling around in your head don't you? I bet you yell out in your sleep "That bastard Johnson!"

 

You honestly believe that you can change the course of a big ship such as DSS overnight? Maybe you weren't paying attention in NAVY school. That ship isn't going to change course more than 2-3 degrees at any one time.

 

The vast MAJORITY of private contractors ARE local nationals with oversight by small teams of highly qualified privatized contractors. This is a valuable move prividing disenfranchised locals with reputable work.

 

The fact that you have zero experience with this type of work, and the last time you served in any capacity was about 30 years ago, makes it tedious to read your continued tirades. In addition your hindsight 20/20 analysis is such a con job it's laughable. You take that stuff verbatim from General Zinny?