Illegals

[RedNose]

Let's say I break into your house.

 

A lady wrote this a while back.

 

Her point:

 

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

 

Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country ad, once here, to stay indefinitely.

 

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house.

Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

 

 

But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.

 

 

I've done all the things you don't like to do.

 

 

I'm hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

 

 

According to the protesters:

 

· You are Required to let me stay in your house

· You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan

· You are Required to Educate my kids

· You are Required to Provide other benefits o me and to my family

(my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

 

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

 

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.

 

I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.

 

And what a deal it is for me!

 

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

 

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn MY LANGUAGE, so you can communicate with me.

 

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?

 

 

 

Only in America.

 

 

 

[kevbone]

Well....how do you feel about that? Nice commentary, but lets hear how you personally feel! Do you want the fence or not?

[StevenSeagal]

You forgot the part about: "The uber-rich neighbors up the street have decided to hire me and all my friends and family and forgive the little break in thing, and told me to invite more of us!"

 

Oh and:

 

"I didn't just do all the things you dont like to do...I did all the things you simply won't do!"

[E-rock]

 

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?

 

 

 

Because this story is an oversimplified analogy, propogated by people who like, even NEED, easy answers, or their worlds fall apart. The issue is far more complex than this story, but whatever makes ya happy. It's nice to know the lines between right and wrong can be so easily drawn to include those who think like you on the RIGHT side of the line, and everyone who opposes on the WRONG side.

 

And I DON'T believe that there's an excuse for illegal immigration, but the solutions thus offered are poor attempts to address the symptoms, rather than the disease. I don't pretend to have easy answers, so I'm not going to get into a "Well what would YOU do, smartypants?" flame war, but people who write passages like the one above seem to KNOW pretty darn surely WHAT to do, which is exactly why I won't listen to people like that for very long.

[JosephH]

The whole issue is an emotionally-charged one that, because of that, is used by the right exactly as gay marriage - to incite people. A little reality check is in order, however, 'illegal immigration' is not a big problem and just those words imply the problem is with the Mexicans seeking work and a better life. That is just plain wrong as is the title of this thread. The real 'Illegals' in this saga are the employers and the real label we should be using for this problem is 'illegal employment'.

 

But the problem with the term 'illegal employers', particularly for the right, is that it demands that we - U.S. citizens - take responsibility for our own actions. God forbid that should ever happen. Fine U.S. employers $2,000 per day per 'illegal employee' and enforce it, and there would be no 'Illegals ' problem. Anyone with a shred of common sense who looks at this issue and doesn't recognize it as one of us taking responsibility for our own actions and their consequences is kidding themselves - there is no 'illegal alien' problem and it isn't a problem with 'them', it's a problem with 'us'.

 

If you think you're getting screwed by an 'illegal alien' directly or indirectly then you're really saying you're getting screwed by a fellow citizen and employer who is avoiding paying the true costs of employing labor by shifting the burden of those costs on to their local, state, and federal gov't and hence to you. They are the theives and the problem. And this is similar to the outsourcing and offshoring issues - the problem isn't 'the Chinese' or 'the Indians' it's with the corporations that send the work out of the country and us wanting to buy goods cheaply at Walmart.

 

[Billygoat]

Well said Joseph.

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

 

But the problem with the term 'illegal employers', particularly for the right, is that it demands that we - U.S. citizens - take responsibility for our own actions. God forbid that should ever happen. Fine U.S. employers $2,000 per day per 'illegal employee' and enforce it, and there would be no 'Illegals ' problem.

 

In equal terms, global warming is being opposed and ridiculed largely on the basis that the measures that might fix the problem- and if nothing else, are in my opinion measures that should be implemented simply for the common good of a cleaner and more responsible environment- are things that "will decrease profits" for businesses. In fact, if you listen to assholes like Rush, you'd think the entire economy would collapse if we made a concerted effort to maximize energy efficiency and decrease pollution. Funny how there's this juxtaposition of criticism of global warming on the basis of it being "pessimism" while their outlook on changing pollution and energy sources is exactly that: CAN'T, WON'T, IMPOSSIBLE. Can't be done. No one speaks of the economic opportunities that might evolve from alternative energy sources and from new technology, because no one wants the certainly of their immediate profits from destructive emissions to be disturbed. With "illegals": same. Why would they want to disrupt their source of dirt cheap labor? The truth is that these employers are screwing everyone from top to bottom with these tactics, but they don't care at all. Unbridled greed has become the hallmark, pervading trait of this culture and it has warped the American perception of what is really needed for a comfortable life.

[foraker]

The whole issue is an emotionally-charged one that, because of that, is used by the right exactly as gay marriage - to incite people. A little reality check is in order, however, 'illegal immigration' is not a big problem and just those words imply the problem is with the Mexicans seeking work and a better life. That is just plain wrong as is the title of this thread. The real 'Illegals' in this saga are the employers and the real label we should be using for this problem is 'illegal employment'.

 

But the problem with the term 'illegal employers', particularly for the right, is that it demands that we - U.S. citizens - take responsibility for our own actions. God forbid that should ever happen. Fine U.S. employers $2,000 per day per 'illegal employee' and enforce it, and there would be no 'Illegals ' problem. Anyone with a shred of common sense who looks at this issue and doesn't recognize it as one of us taking responsibility for our own actions and their consequences is kidding themselves - there is no 'illegal alien' problem and it isn't a problem with 'them', it's a problem with 'us'.

 

If you think you're getting screwed by an 'illegal alien' directly or indirectly then you're really saying you're getting screwed by a fellow citizen and employer who is avoiding paying the true costs of employing labor by shifting the burden of those costs on to their local, state, and federal gov't and hence to you. They are the theives and the problem. And this is similar to the outsourcing and offshoring issues - the problem isn't 'the Chinese' or 'the Indians' it's with the corporations that send the work out of the country and us wanting to buy goods cheaply at Walmart.

 

I've advocated this myself but I realize it's not likely to happen since 'employers' in a political context are 'campaign contributors' and 'post-political-life employment opportunities'. Better to tax the populace to build a multibillion dollar fence that likely won't work than to upset the gold-egg-laying geese.

[tvashtarkatena]

The whole issue is an emotionally-charged one that, because of that, is used by the right exactly as gay marriage - to incite people. A little reality check is in order, however, 'illegal immigration' is not a big problem and just those words imply the problem is with the Mexicans seeking work and a better life. That is just plain wrong as is the title of this thread. The real 'Illegals' in this saga are the employers and the real label we should be using for this problem is 'illegal employment'.

 

But the problem with the term 'illegal employers', particularly for the right, is that it demands that we - U.S. citizens - take responsibility for our own actions. God forbid that should ever happen. Fine U.S. employers $2,000 per day per 'illegal employee' and enforce it, and there would be no 'Illegals ' problem. Anyone with a shred of common sense who looks at this issue and doesn't recognize it as one of us taking responsibility for our own actions and their consequences is kidding themselves - there is no 'illegal alien' problem and it isn't a problem with 'them', it's a problem with 'us'.

 

If you think you're getting screwed by an 'illegal alien' directly or indirectly then you're really saying you're getting screwed by a fellow citizen and employer who is avoiding paying the true costs of employing labor by shifting the burden of those costs on to their local, state, and federal gov't and hence to you. They are the theives and the problem. And this is similar to the outsourcing and offshoring issues - the problem isn't 'the Chinese' or 'the Indians' it's with the corporations that send the work out of the country and us wanting to buy goods cheaply at Walmart.

 

Spot on.

 

I was out in the Yakima valley this fall, wine tasting with my little pinky in the air and discussing mouth feel, nose, and hints of almond and mesquite with my wife. Every single orchard had a 'pickers wanted' sign. The situation was desperate. There was fruit rotting on the trees everywhere. Farmers were telling reporters that they would have paid triple to get their fruit picked had they been able to find pickers.

 

Immigration legislation was responsible for this. Lesson: we can hault illegal immigration any time we want by focusing on the employers. The Fence, which isn't funded by the way, is just another knee jerk, expensive boondoggle by a 'business friendly' administration/legislature who, for political reasons, won't pin the tail on the right donkey. Why would they? Hispanics vote Democrat, farmers and labor contractors vote Republican. End of fucking story there.

 

And as for illegal nannys and maids? Uh...they don't exactly hire themselves, do they?

 

The Drug War is an exact parallel. Blame the poor farmers supplying our Hoover-like nostrils. After all, they don't vote. The blame certainly doesn't rest with us, who consume the product (Take our cocaine away before we snort again!)

That would require too much personal responsibility, and we all know the GOP abandoned that principle a long, long time ago.

 

Full disclosure: I believe in total drug legalization.

 

[ryland_moore]

Joesph, I would take it a step further. There is a problem with both illegal employers and illegal immigrants. You cannot say that it is not the fault of immigrants who come here illegally. It is their faults just as much as it is the people who employ them. If I said to you, I will give you $1 million for free, but it was stolen from a bank, dboes that mean it is o.k. for you to accept the money? or is any less illegal? I think businesses who hire illegal workers should be fined and the penalties should be high enough that it would deter most businesses from doing so, but untithe penalties for hiring illegals far outweighs the cost savings they reap from paying lower wages, then it will not have much of an affect.

 

I am also calling B.S. on the post that illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't do". I personally know of two people in Louisiana who were fired in the shrimping business becasue they were being paid $10/hour and the company started hiring illegals to pay them $4.25/hour. Yes, there are jobs out there that most americans won't do, but there are also jobs that American citizens are lossing, then do not have the job skills to go after mor lucrative jobs. Almost every highschool drop out in America will be competing with aaaillegal immigrants for these jobs. Maybe not jobs that you or I would ever want, but definitely low-paying blue collar jobs that do not require a degree.

 

I also have a friend who owns a landscaping business, and his two top competiutors in gresham are oupfits that are owned and run by illegal immigrants. They charge less for the jobs, do great work and pay no taxes. Not even registered with the Sec. of State or incorporated. He estimates he has lost 20-25% of his business to these two "businesses".

 

I think we need more stringent security at the border. I think implementing a guest worker program is awesome and we need to provide better opportunities to those who do want to move here and make it easier for those to obtain citizenship.

 

Anyone who wants to move here and not become at least a dual citizen, learn our heritage, learn the english language (not necessarily using it), pay taxes, and become a citizen of the US is more than welcome to do so. All others should be kept out except for short visas (3-6 months max).

 

I also have another friend who was in the Peace Corps in the Phillipines, got married to a Phillipino and has, for three years, been trying to get her to move here and become a legal citizen. They are married! And yet, she still is required to go back to the Phillipines every 3 months! they have an immigration attorney, have racked up over $60,000 in attorney fees and still she has not been granted citizenship ashile being married to an American. How is this fare?

 

This is not about left vs. right. I belive in global warming and would consider myself a conservationist, work for non-profits, and even voted Kerry and Gore in the last two elections. But our borders do require more security. This is not about hispanics vs. white americans. It is about illegal immigrants coming into the country undocumented. You see thisno where else in the world.

 

 

 

[ivan]

my country isn't the same as my house - the washington monument doesn't have a dirty pair of drawers hanging off the top of it and the relecting pool doesn't smell like piss

[tvashtarkatena]

The question here is what is the most cost effective way to reduce the population of illegal immigrants. The answer is clearly: focus on the employers. There are fewer of them, they have much more to lose, and they are here permanently.

 

Frankly, it's all about enforcement of existing laws. Running a non-tax paying business? It's called tax evasion. Don't have a business license? It's call tax evasion. Not paying your payroll taxes? It's called tax evasion.

 

Worked with the mafia.

Edited February 14, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[ryland_moore]

As one who works with farmers in the Yakima, this is a unique situation where you had an illegal immigration 'bust' occur just before the picking season occurred, coupled with the fact that alot of those orchards are not off the beaten path and right on main highways. It is difficult for the illegals to get away from ins or sherriffs offices and easier for them to be picked up if they are picking in orchards right on the mcain highway. This is why some orchardists are flush with workers and others struggle to get their apples picked.

[tvashtarkatena]

As one who works with farmers in the Yakima, this is a unique situation where you had an illegal immigration 'bust' occur just before the picking season occurred, coupled with the fact that alot of those orchards are not off the beaten path and right on main highways. It is difficult for the illegals to get away from ins or sherriffs offices and easier for them to be picked up if they are picking in orchards right on the mcain highway. This is why some orchardists are flush with workers and others struggle to get their apples picked.

 

Anecdotally, every orchard I saw was way off the beaten path, because we were way off the beaten path. We purposefully stayed as far from the main highway as possible to have a more bucolic tasting experience. There were also many articles written about the bust. It was widespread.

[chucK]

Talk about oversimplifying...you guys know what rightwing nutcase billboard with the Uncle Sam south of Centralia on I-5?

 

Last time I was down there it said something to the effect of, "You want to know why your healthcare costs are skyrocketing? Think illegal aliens!"

 

Uh huh. Lock that border tight as a drum and all our healthcare costs will go way down.

 

 

[ryland_moore]

I always look forward to the Uncle Sam billboard as a source of free entertainment when driving north to my climbs. Always wonder what that guy will come up with next! I am also too tempted to turn around and look at the other side as I pass instead of waiting until my return trip.....

[Seahawks]

Let's say I break into your house.

 

A lady wrote this a while back.

 

Her point:

 

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

 

Certain people are angry that the US might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country ad, once here, to stay indefinitely.

 

Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house.

Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

 

 

But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.

 

 

I've done all the things you don't like to do.

 

 

I'm hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

 

 

According to the protesters:

 

· You are Required to let me stay in your house

· You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan

· You are Required to Educate my kids

· You are Required to Provide other benefits o me and to my family

(my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

 

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

 

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.

 

I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house.

 

And what a deal it is for me!

 

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

 

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn MY LANGUAGE, so you can communicate with me.

 

Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?

 

 

 

Only in America.

 

 

 

 

Personally I think its crap becuase that would mean all of us leaving and giving everything to the indians who thought they had a nice house before we came.

[Mr_Phil]

Again proving Seahawks a dipshit.

 

The native americans are illegal immigrants as well. They snuck across the border during the last ice age.

[Seahawks]

Again proving Seahawks a dipshit.

 

The native americans are illegal immigrants as well. They snuck across the border during the last ice age.

 

Okay, point proved you too are a dipshit.

[Seahawks]

you know go back to Germany's race crap before WWII, looked just like this stuff. Got kick those Jews out becuase there different, they control everything. There taking evertything from us and it our land. Which gradually grew to "lets kill em all". Whytte Earp mentality. Good movie though.

[G-spotter]

I always look forward to the Uncle Sam billboard as a source of free entertainment when driving north to my climbs. Always wonder what that guy will come up with next! I am also too tempted to turn around and look at the other side as I pass instead of waiting until my return trip.....

 

One time it said "Gays in the military gives new meaning to the term "Watch Your Ass""

[Clavote]

If I meet you guys on the trail, please do not offer me a job picking apples in Wenatchee, WA.

 

I do speak Spanish and the improvement in the service is huge when you chat with the spanish speaking help. I'm prepared for the future.

 

I'm off to get a credit card from BoA. WoooHoo!

[ryland_moore]

I acutally can't wait to hear about all of the credit cards from B of A given out to illegals with "George Washington" or Arnold Schwartzenegger" on them! Anyone know what their "high introductory fee" and high interest rates are going to be?

 

I'd say this is worse than Oregon giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses without any proof of age, citizenship, or a ss#.

 

Or maybe it is a consiracy by the Feds to find out how many illegal immigrants are actually in the US? Free money? They will come out of the woodwork for sure!

[Mr_Phil]

I'd say this is worse than Oregon giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses without any proof of age, citizenship, or a ss#.

 

In Washington, they don't even require proof of driving ability!

[pink]

The whole issue is an emotionally-charged one that, because of that, is used by the right exactly as gay marriage - to incite people. A little reality check is in order, however, 'illegal immigration' is not a big problem and just those words imply the problem is with the Mexicans seeking work and a better life. That is just plain wrong as is the title of this thread. The real 'Illegals' in this saga are the employers and the real label we should be using for this problem is 'illegal employment'.

 

But the problem with the term 'illegal employers', particularly for the right, is that it demands that we - U.S. citizens - take responsibility for our own actions. God forbid that should ever happen. Fine U.S. employers $2,000 per day per 'illegal employee' and enforce it, and there would be no 'Illegals ' problem. Anyone with a shred of common sense who looks at this issue and doesn't recognize it as one of us taking responsibility for our own actions and their consequences is kidding themselves - there is no 'illegal alien' problem and it isn't a problem with 'them', it's a problem with 'us'.

 

If you think you're getting screwed by an 'illegal alien' directly or indirectly then you're really saying you're getting screwed by a fellow citizen and employer who is avoiding paying the true costs of employing labor by shifting the burden of those costs on to their local, state, and federal gov't and hence to you. They are the theives and the problem. And this is similar to the outsourcing and offshoring issues - the problem isn't 'the Chinese' or 'the Indians' it's with the corporations that send the work out of the country and us wanting to buy goods cheaply at Walmart.

 

have you ever had employees and if so what type of business?

 

and are you saying that the government instills good work ethic in their employee's. my mom has worked for the federal government for thirty some years and i understand that goverment employees are a lazy bunch.

 

joseph, i'd pay a hard working guy from south america more money than i'd pay some lazy american kid who shows up hung over every other day.

 

the goverment can only handle so much at one time anyway.

 

 

did you know that south americans are like mexicans to mexicans like mexicans are to us.

 

fine small business's and drive them out business beause that's good for the economy.

 

joseph, i have never known you to follow suit.

 

i somewhat disagree and agree with what you say and get the impression that you despise business in this country.