The most important course is never taught.

[TREETOAD]

I am just talking amongst myself and between us I decided jonmf76

is a fucking idiot and should be posting on the fucking idiot thread

 

:pagetop:

Edited December 29, 2006 by TREETOAD

[jca]

I am a 65 year old climber who often did not turn around when I should have on "little" mountains(Mt Baker for example) and paid a modest price(long miserable night in snow cave or on ledge) but I always turned around in time on big, scary things(to me anyway) like Mt Robson. I am still here and finally found Mt Robson in perfect conditions(frozen solid) on August 8, 1998. Patience rewards. If you insist on climbing in uncertain conditions, it seems to me it is mandetory to have an escape route in mind. Try climbing the slog, descent route before you attempt the north wall.

[kevbone]

I am just talking amongst myself and between us I decided jonmf76

is a fucking idiot and should be posting on the fucking idiot thread

 

Tell us how you really feel!

[JayB]

I think it's worth getting to know the approach and the mountain a bit in the summer-time before hitting the mountain in the winter-time. More of a general preference than a hard-and-fast rule. Generally ignored when I'm heading out with someone who knows the mountain, and something I'm a bit more careful about if I'm taking along someone who's less experienced and/or expecting me to take care of most of the leading, routefinding, and what-have-you.

 

 

I think that one tactic that has yet to be fully explored here is bringing along a bail-buddy, who will agree to hit the bail-button upon hearing you state the pre-agreed-upon code-word on the route. Once he hears the magic word, the bail-buddy artfully contrives a persuasive "It's Time to Bail," monologue that takes into account whatever natural phenomena happen to be most pertinent at the time "You know guys, I just really don't like the looks of that squirrel over there..." and thereby assumes the responsibility for pulling the plug. Weather moving in but the partner insists on moving ahead? Vague feelings of doubt and dread and doom that you can't really articulate or justify plaguing your every step? You need The Bail Buddy!

 

 

 

[TREETOAD]

I always just say to my partner "How are we going to get down from this?" about every twenty minutes or so. It tends to keep the positive mojo happening

[sobo]

Interesting concept. My former partner (before he got with kids and all) and I used to go back and forth when it came time to bail. Neither wanted to be "the first" to bail. Typical conversation:

 

Partner: The fill in whatever natural phenomena happen to be most pertinent at the time looks sick. We should really think about bailing.

 

Me: I'm not gonna bail. You wanna bail?

 

Partner: I'm not gonna bail. You wanna bail?

 

Me: I'm not gonna bail. ad nauseum

 

It's a wonder neither of us ever got deaded!

[Maestro]

Lets return to the title of this thread. Is when to bail taught in any class...

 

Well, IMO yes and no. Yes, because in the basic climbing class taught by that organization that most people on this board love to hate, the priorities for a climb are stressed as 1)safety 2)fun, enjoyment 3)summit. No, because when to bail is so subjective that only experience can really teach it. MOO

 

 

[joblo7]

ah yes..... the most important.

 

in climbing we all use intuition. cant be taught, got to have it.

 

the first time i climbed huascaran ,i went alone, i forgot my fuel. met some nice folks, summitted.

 

trust yourself.

 

[jca]

How can they teach the thousand? things in a class that should make you bail...from the obvious(like 2 acres of snow around you just settled a few inches with a "whump") to the not so obvious(like H is not his usual self; he is slow and it will soon be hard to find the rappel station(Grand Teton)/exit ledges(Mt Robson)/tent in the woods/trail/gear we stashed/road we drove in on/freeway/wife coming to pick me up, etc.

[joblo7]

climbing is like spirituality ,archery etc, book knowledge helps but experience and practice are mandatory.

when you read a climbing book AFTER a climb , you learn so much.

[jca]

Reading Accidents In North American Mountaineering provides a lot of insights. I'm serious, although there have been the ones like "Injured by his pack".

[forrest_m]

if you retreat upwards, will real climbers still think you are a failure?

[Weekend_Climberz]

I always try to fail upwards.

[OldManRock]

Jca made an important observation a few posts ago - "If you insist on climbing in uncertain conditions, it seems to me it is mandetory to have an escape route in mind. Try climbing the slog, descent route before you attempt the north wall." - I started climbing in the middle 50's and taught climbing for about 30 years because back then it was one way to get people to climb with - One mantra I always told new climbers, before climbing the North Wall, climb the easy route first - Then when your on top in the storm of all storms you know the easy way down.

[Dechristo]

Phil,

 

Again, you missed the point.

 

I DON'T feel that way, but you go tell anyone in the climbing world that you didn't make the summit of a mountain, and that is the response you will get..

 

only from n00bs like yourself

[ClimbingPanther]

I know some sayings by other famous climbers but they all contain bad language or references to sexual acts and can't be posted here.

 

Absolutely no offense meant, billbob, but this was a jewel!

[G-spotter]

"Summit or die, either way I win" - Rob Slater.

[dan_forester]

As one of the world's most talented and accomplished climbers (I do it for personal exploration, so you won't be reading about me in Rock and Ice), I would advice lesser climbers that it is OK to turn around before summiting. I've never had to, but I have thought deeply about the possibility of failure many, many times as I triumphantly approached the point where ridge meets sky.

 

 

 

[joblo7]

J, climb the easy route first - Then when your on top in the storm of all storms you know the easy way down.

 

 

wise advice. NOTHING beats having been there. if thats not possible, study closely, maps, pictures,TRs etc.to visualise it .

 

'get to know tha montain' before puttin' it ALL on tha line'

 

 

[pink]

Over the years of slide shows and talks I have given, it has occured to me that the most important course has never been taught. And that is specifically about when to retreat from a climb.

 

Retreating has been made into an embarrassment, when it is actually sound judgement and climbing wisdom in action.

 

 

"Oh, you didn't summit? Too bad your climb was a failure.."

 

 

OK, talk amongst yourselves..

 

 

don't go around spraying about a climb until y a done it. tell a few close loved ones justy in case. i think it jinx's the climb anyway.

[joblo7]

true climber's words...... aaah...experience makes life is so simple.

[G-spotter]

If you bail, you might live, but you still failed.

[joblo7]

the people who sumitted everest last year and left someone die on the route failed.

[G-spotter]

They may have failed morally but they succeeeded technically.

[AlpineK]

Climbing is a technical sport after all