Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 One thought regarding SAR response is that most SAR incidents are for lost hikers or just general outdoor people, true and these are usually handled by volunteer SAR without needing military support. not necessarily SAR responses for climbers take a lot more support and rely on the military actually, usually they don't. , but it would be a very expensive system to involve the military in every search no, the military does not bill anyone
park7 Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Iain, I'd be surprised if the PJ's had not gotten some squared away climbers and were working with them, sounds like you were part of that team. So I guess I'd ask you what you thought of them? Are they pro's or not? What would you suggest as the way to improve these types of Ops. My suggestion of utilising these types of military as rescue leaders is that they have the main resources to get the mission done (aircraft, people, medics, pilots, surveilance equipment, medical supplies ...not to mention - authority) and they have the training and practice of selecting and work with local & technical experts to assist. My observations were regarding the command structure & mission effectiveness, certainly not the individual rescuers. With all respect intended; I struggle to see how an MRT or a sheriffs dept has the resources to do this stuff.
Steve_B Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 wow ...maybe I will!....what a novel idea!... got anymore productive suggestions dr flush it?
Choada_Boy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 also, about the "Y" sign letting rescuers know 'yes, we're here', when I saw a picture of the 'Y' it certainly looked to me like an anchor that was equalized rather than some 'code' or 'sign'... Wow. You should get on the phone and let the SAR team know that. Constipated main character in works by Arthur Conan Doyle.
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 got anymore productive suggestions dr flush it? Well, there are a few other glaringly moronic misinterpretations and misstatements spread by Fox News and the like that you could straigten out for us. Keep up the good work.
StevenSeagal Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Well, there are a few other glaringly moronic misinterpretations and misstatements spread by Fox News You mean like, "climbers may have fallen into 1/2 mile deep crack in mountain" ?
butabiscut Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 hey i would hate to see this disscussion digress into a contest about which SAR teams are the greatest. lets just remember that its just like highschool to be worried about stuff like that. park 7- i agree with the greater part of what you said but saying that 'PJ's generally end up doing the work anyway' is offensive to alot of the non military types who do so much in these situations. Pararescue men are beyond a doubt some of the best trained SAR teams in the world. i would want them on my mountain if i were hunkered down in a cave but that doesnt mean that a civilian climber, who climbs every available day of their waking life, wont be more experienced in a certain discipline. That PJ can save you in any terrain in the world, in combat or in peace, in water or on land. If your boat tamks in high sees that climber wil be watching on tv and the PJ will be in the water pulling you out dead or alive, but if your in a snow cave at 11 thsnd feet that climber might be the lead and the pj might yeild to his/her greater knowledge. that said alpine fox also over stated things by saying, "Military rescue teams are not trained in technical climbing and need the assistance of people with that expertise to transport injured climbers to less difficult terrain. Also, many rescues are effected without air support." Pjs spend their life training for these situations and some of them in the 304th are very well trained in mountain rescue and technical climbing. that doesnt mean that every PJ is a mountain expert and that doesnt mean that the best trained PJ is as knowledgable as the best trained civilian. they dont "need" the help of civilians to retrieve the survivior but that doenst mean that someone else on the mountain wouldnt be better suited for the job. trust me if a PJ is the only person around and youre in a cave on a 65 degree face, he'll get you out of there safely. hey mtn boy- you said "The PJ's used to be based at PDX with their rescue helo's. They are great, but their full time job takes them over seas alot and they are not always available. I which our senators and congressment could get them re-based in the area." the 304th is still in portland at the PANG base and the unit will be there for some time. generally speaking the guys doing this work are co-operative and see one another as brothers and sisters in common cause. its usually the people on the periphery that do the jawing. so lets keep it civil and remeber that all of these men and women are incredibly dedicated, and talented people and they reperesent one of mans best qualities; the desire to take care of one another in times of need. peace love and gap
iain Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 park7- I believe there is a great relationship (in Portland, at least) between the PJs and the MRA team. There is mutual respect between both entities, a long history of working together through tough situations, and a strong friendship. There are PJs who are members of the MRA team. Perhaps this is unique to Portland. Of course an MRA team will have varying levels of skill and experience. Obviously in a dangerous operation like hoisting on the summit, only the most experienced and skilled will be up there. In any event, the PJs have a history here, and are a very valuable asset to mtn rescue in OR, and everyone hopes they stay around. If only they'd stop crashing helicopters! Just kidding. Have a nice day.
Roger Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 iain, were you up there? come on Lambone, you gotta keep up with this fast-breaking news... This is from one of the endless redundant updates Oregonlive adds every 2.5 minutes. "About 25 volunteers from Portland Mountain Rescue headed up the south side of the mountain to establish a safe emergency descent from the summit. "Two experienced climbers, Iain Morris and Nick Pope, packed light and headed quickly to the summit. Risky avalanche conditions slowed progress as they neared the top."
MtnBoy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Park 7, In the Alps there is a dedicated corp of 2 man heli rescue teams using high altitude lamas. Because there is such a large amount of access for the un-initiated through trains, gondolas, trams, via ferrettas etc. there are a large number of rescues for what would be relatively minor occurances. Litterally sprained ankles. The problems comes in when people don't plan on taking care of them selves. This does vary from counrty to country (ie. norway is much more self reliant than Germany). I and a lot of people carry a sam splint or know how to improvise one, and walk out with out the need for rescue. People in the alps know there is a rescue service, and expect to use it. Imagine being the european dispatcher and deciding between what is serious and not, so you don't take a chance and send out more liberally than you normally would. Imagine the fall out. Nanny State refers to soceities where people expect the government to take care of them rather than on their own recognacence. Thanks for the discussion and we really should move this topic off of the Oregon forum
tbunch Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 We could infer quite a lot if we know what equipment was left with Kelly James. If he was tucked in by his partners, they will have filled their water bottles before leaving him, then left him with a stove and the vast majority of or all of their stove fuel, knowing that he might have to wait for days. Are we privy to that information? It seems to me that we should be able to put to rest by now speculation as to whether he was separated from his partners unexpectedly or not, but so far everything I've seen has been speculation, including that from Sheriff Wampler. If he was separated unexpectedly, he would have relatively random assortment of shared gear.
park7 Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Thanks Iain, Sounds like you have a good team over there. My best to you. The other post makes a good point it's easy to get dragged into a 'I'll get your ass out of a situation better than that other guy/team' ...and that's no help to finding solutions. From where I sit it seems like a serious business (mountain rescue where cohesive teamwork rules. More power to you & your team. For a rescue guy who doesn't know Mt Hood - your updates are valuable and informative. And shit ... if Canada can pay for pro rescue service, I'm damned if we can't. Someone needs to keep shaking that money tree in Washington. Peace, Out.
rob_cranfill Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 As for letting SAR know that the "Y sign" might be an anchor, the home page of the Oregonian (newspaper) has a picture of it, and it's captioned "Rescuers found this self-equalizing anchor on the side of Mt. Hood." So I think people know. - rob
Bamadad Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 'Why is this being run by a Sheriff's dept?' this was my question... FWIW....., Sunday, December 17, 2006, Oregonian. “About 730 people got lost or needed rescue in Oregon last year. Only 24 were climbers, and fewer than 12 percent came from out of state.” Susan Nielson columnist for Oregonian. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/susan_nielsen/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml&coll=7 Same resource questions go into whether there is a paid or volunteer fire department, ski patrol, or a mixture. Here is the site for annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml Gruss Gott, positive thoughts for the families. Danke.
dmuja Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 And shit ... if Canada can pay for pro rescue service, I'm damned if we can't. Someone needs to keep shaking that money tree in Washington. Ha! we'll be lucky to fend of all the attempts to "ban climbing!" after this is done.
TrogdortheBurninator Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Thanks Iain, ..... And shit ... if Canada can pay for pro rescue service, I'm damned if we can't. Someone needs to keep shaking that money tree in Washington. Peace, Out. Pro resuce services would be great, but given the already apparent lack of funding for preventative services such as Northwest Avalanch Center, which reaches far more users, I don't think it is realistic in the near future. Maybe incidents such as this will spark public support, but I personally would rather see that money put into NWAC. Maybe it was already mentioned, but I wonder (doubt??) if a professional rescue team could actually have done more in this situation. The conditions would have been atrocious for anyone, and now that condtions are good the multi-departmental search seems to be making quick progress. :tup: to our volunteer services!!
stinkyclimber Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Note that "Canada's pro rescue service" is limited to Banff and Jasper National Parks in the Rockies, and even there, I believe everyone on the SAR teams also do regular park warden jobs in between call outs. Far from universal. Those parks are unusual for the density of backcountry and high-angle recreation activities all in one spot under federal jurisdiction that makes a pro service feasible.
Thinker Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 don't forget US groups like the infamous YOSAR
Lambone Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Iain, good job man. thanks alot for your hard efforts.I'm sorry the outcome wasn't better for you guys and everyone yesterday. after getting rescued by folks like you I have one hell of an appreciation for what you do. Someday I hope to follow in your example. cheers bro
finger of fate Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 I might be wrong, but didn't I see something about a 2:00 pm press conference today?
cartomat Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 (edited) The Oregonian is reporting "Hood River County Sheriff Joe Wampler says searchers fear that the other two climbers might have fallen. Searchers focus on Eliot Glacier and an area just below the Newton Clark Glacier know as “The Gullies” by air." By "the Gullies" do you think they mean below the Black Spider - or are "the gullies" right above the spider? I don't think i recall an area known as "the gullies." Probably more disinformation - they are most likely taking about the NF chutes above the Elliot NOT Newton Clark. Edited December 18, 2006 by cartomat
randomguy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 I know that this thread isn't for transcription, but it would be really useful if someone could post if anything new is said at the press conference.
JB Guero Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Am I the only one impressed with the Sheriff? Professional and informative, he's doing a good job.
Recommended Posts