Don't die - double yourself up.

[Cobra_Commander]

The belay loop is one of the most over-engineered, bomber chunks of climbing gear out there. How many belay loops have been weighted, fallen on, caught huge whippers, tugged, yanked, etc. and have failed? I now know of one case, and in that case it was worn long after its expected life expired. Should it be inspected frequently? Of course. Should it have a retirement program? Definitely. But there are bigger concerns in climbing in my opinion.

[pope]

When Dan Osman's rope broke, how many people concluded that using ropes was unsafe?

 

The issue with belay loops is that they add another single link to the belay chain, a link that doesn't really need to be there. Fresh off the shelf, they are probably engineered to be more than adequate for belaying and descending. But it's just a piece of webbing, a single piece of webbing. As such, it is subject to abrasion, UV damage, and diminished strength that just comes with age. If sewn from a single piece of webbing (as many are), it is also subject to manufacturing flaws, so even though it is doubled, both loops may contain the same weakness.

 

Certainly Todd Skinner isn't the only one who has continued to use a harness (and belay loop) long after it should be retired. Commercial harnesses are expensive. I've seen many climbers who regularly replace their aging slings continue to use an old, faded harness. If this is you, think twice about it. If you're not ready to replace it, avoid the belay loop and clip your locker around both the leg loops and the belt. Also, use 1" webbing for a chalk-bag strap, secure it with a strong knot (bowline is convenient) and use it to back up your harness.

 

Better yet, for about $5, you can buy enough 2" webbing to make a double-wrap swami which works well with commercial leg loops. Since it's cheap, you can replace it once a year.

 

the locker through waist belt plus leg loops is triaxially loaded and more likely to break. check ANAM.

 

this is not a case of "belay loops are unsafe" but a case of "worn out ratty old gear is unsafe".

 

That's only the case if the leg loop connection sits too low. If it makes a high enough loop, the leg loop connection and harness belt will meet at about the same point and the locker will only be loaded along its long axis. Furthermore, the locker will be in the correct (vertical) plane, perpendicular to the direction most people lock off the rope during a fall. Belay loops put a twist into this.

[Cobra_Commander]

Does everyone back up their belay device with a second belay device? Cause if that sucka fails, game over man!

[Jason_Martin]

Regardless of the recent accident, you should use your harness the way it was designed to be used. When you make modifications, like clipping biners through your tie-in point, you create new risks. The manufacturers suggested use of climbing gear is the way the gear should be used.

 

Old gear is dangerous. I think the point is apt. Had the rope broken because it was old and worn out, nobody would be saying that we shouldn't use ropes. If an old sling broke, nobody would say we shouldn't be using slings. If a old biner broke, nobody would be saying we shouldn't use biners...the point is to pay attention to the life-span of your gear, not to start using things in ways they weren't meant to be used.

 

Jason

[TeleRoss]

belay loops 25kN

cams~6-14kN

nuts~2-14kN

slings~22kN

biners~20-25kN

The belay loop is fukin' bomber, and is in fact one of the strongest links in the safety chain, however it is made of nylon and definitely has a short(er) lifespan than other equipment. There is really no reason not to depend on it with confidence, unless it's heavily worn, damaged, or getting frail with age...then it's definitely time for it to be retired.

How many of us have old ass cams with the original sling attached? I've seen some crazy old slings on cams around...probably should be replacing those too.

 

RIP Todd Skinner, the climbing world and humanity as a whole has lost an inspiration

[olyclimber]

i can think of one person i climb who has a tatty old harness, i may have to just get him a new one myself if he doesn't do it. its one piece of gear that you use every climb, and is a single point of failue (which of course is why they make the belay loop so strong).

[Figger_Eight]

I agree - use the gear as it's designed to be used. Tie into the tie in points, and belay from the belay loops. Depending on the biner I have at the time, I'll rap from either one.

 

The answer for old, worn gear isn't to back it up - it's to get a new one.

[Choada_Boy]

I just bought a second harness so that I can "Double-Harn" from here on out.

[billcoe]

thirty-three years ago, climbing in the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs, I survived a harness failure on rappel. I had been taught to run the brake portion of the rope from the rappel brake between my legs and then to my brake hand. When the harness failed, I slapped my brake hand to my chest, holding myself "seated" in a bight of rope. I was able to pass the brake portion of the rope over my shoulder and continue the rappel dulfersitz style eighty feet to the ground. most climbers I've witnessed do not pass the brake rope between their legs when rappelling. but this simple adjustment creates a lifesaving redundancy that worked for me...

 

MONTY: WTF HAPPENED?

 

I think Joseph has a great take on it. My last lead harness is still being used for toproping, rapping and cleaning. It must be @10 years old and I've never been concerned....till now anyway.

 

Might be a good idea to just toss it and use my new one.

[ScottP]

No doubt the harness manufacturers are tooling up to handle a sudden spike in new harness orders...

[dmuja]

So 2 things I learned this week..

 

(1) Id better take serious the warnings Ive heard ever since I started climbing about replacing worn out gear..

 

(2) Id better take serious the warnings Ive heard ever since I started climbing about NOT girth hitching spectra or dyneema slings..

 

My understanding as of the moment is that "belay loops" in general are very strong - a stronger component of the safety system than most other parts - but this varies from brand to brand.

 

I think people more often may 'over look' that particular component though because they "look so beefy" and are only a part of the harness - which may not get inspected for wear so much as dated for replacement based on time.

 

I use my belay loop for belaying, self belaying, rapping, anchor hanginging, glacier roping, etc.. Maybe Im death waiting to happen? I might start throwing a sling backup thru the tie in points now as a back up just to see if the little fuss is worth the extra time but really if I stick to what I first learned about "worn gear" and "girth hitch weaknesses" Il probly be ok.. maybe

 

Anyway our gut tells us to "change" or "adjust something" when we may have just gotten off track with some bad habits. Adjust in this case may mean getting back to basics.

[Gary_Yngve]

MONTY: WTF HAPPENED?

 

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post586514

[kurthicks]

New Testing from BD

Thanks Kolin!

[meadlx200]

Hey,

I've been climbing a few years---alpine and lately ice through courses or guides-still learning. I always run a locking carabiner through the belay loop and the harness waist belt and use this set-up to belay and rap. Everyone has always checked (buddy check), but never commented either positive or negative. Is this right? I would appreciate any thoughts.

thanks

[catbirdseat]

That's a new one on me. I just use the belay loop as instructed by the manufacturer.

[Doug]

I've used a BD Bod Harness for years and that's how that one is designed,locking pear biner through the belay loop and waist belt.

[androolus]

Hey,

I've been climbing a few years---alpine and lately ice through courses or guides-still learning. I always run a locking carabiner through the belay loop and the harness waist belt and use this set-up to belay and rap. Everyone has always checked (buddy check), but never commented either positive or negative. Is this right? I would appreciate any thoughts.

thanks

 

I was told the same thing in a glacier climbing class and foolishly believed it. Imagine my suprise when I went to the climbing gym and the person doing my belay check said WTF...I guess I should have read the harness instructions instead of just believing my instructor. Doh.

[meadlx200]

Maybe that's why I'm confused, I always used the BD alpine bod as well. It is the most versatile for what I do, I never really looked at any other harnesses.

thanks

--------------------

[Doug]

I just checked the BD website. I did not know that the Bod now comes with an official belay loop. The alpine bod is still the same old configuration. The bod instructions for use say only tie in through the belay loop; for the alpine bod it say use the leg crosspiece and the waist belt.

 

Best advice? Follow the manufacturers instructions and replce worn equipment.

[Choada_Boy]

the bod instructions for use say only tie in through the belay loop

 

No they do not!

 

"When tying the climbing rope to your harness, always tie it to the waistbelt tie-in loop and leg loop cross piece correctly."

[olyclimber]

I just bought a second harness so that I can "Double-Harn" from here on out.

 

thats fine. but make sure you double up the loops on both of them.

[catbirdseat]

I just think Doug mispoke. He meant to say "belay from" not "tie in".

[Doug]

I did mis-speak. I have always referred to that piece sewn into both leg loops as the belay loop. When I tie in, I tie through both that and the waistband. When I belay or rappel, my biner goes through both.

 

Here is what BD's site says about the Alpine Bod:

 

" When tying the climbing rope to your harness, always tie it to the waistbelt tie-in loop and leg loop cross piece correctly.

 

When using belay and rappel devices, they should only be attached to the belay loop. "

 

Intersting that the Alpine Bod doesn't appear to have a Belay Loop.

[billcoe]

.....I survived a harness failure on rappel......

 

Ahhh, thanks for the link Gary. I understand now. The "harness" itself didn't fail, Monty mis-tied a swiss Sling which he himself had tied. The "equipment" was fine.

 

Until This one, I had not heard of a harness failure, which, when you think of how people SOMETIMES toss them into a trunk after climbing, and SOMETIMES those very same trunks have had car batteries carried in them......well, you'd expect an occasional failure.