Busy downtown Seattle Oct 5

[underworld]

but we had a knife and a shotgun!

 

yeee haw!!

[Jim]

A short postscript. There were the usual few gray-haired birkenstock folks with lots of buttons on their vests but generally a few hundred of normal folks. I wandered around and spoke to quite a few; my favorites were the chick dressed like a beauty queen and a shash that said "I Miss America" and the older woman with a sign that said "Lying Sack of Shit". The ragin' grannies are a pretty spry group.

 

I found it more interesting to talk to some folks on the edge of the crowd, some who were passing thru or waiting for a bus. A couple of people act like you're a pan handler or something if you strike up a conversation (odd). I spoke to a couple of folks who thought the demonstration was "silly" and were staunch repuublicans and seem annoyed. But after a few minutes of conversation it became apparent that they too had concerns over the power grab by this administration. Both of them came to the same conclusion though, they would hold their nose and vote republican, for any office. At the end I asked them if it was worth it, the Iraq adventure, half-done in Afganistan, and ignoring basic conservative values (balance of power, fiscal mgmt, etc.). They both thought a minute, shrugged, and nodded yes.

[underworld]

but did you set them straight and tell them they were wrong?

 

ok...kidding aside. sounds like a reasonable time. did you get to see any of the arrests?

[Jim]

I think you know I wasn't looking for an agurment, mostly listening. The odd protocal of the intenet is one thing, speaking to someone in person, particulary who you don't know is another.

 

I think the arrests happend way earlier. The cops looked bored around the federal building. And the crowd was all on the plaza and not blocking traffic. You did have to weave your way through them on the sidewalk however.

 

I have to admit I'm a bit confused. I guess I still have the quaint notion that the republican party represents conservative values. With the mismanagement of world affairs, our fiscal state, clipping away at the Constitution, and the race to the gutter from the divisive rhetoric from the White House these days, what is in it for the Americans that support the Bush administration? Seriously. Without getting bombastic and going on about limp-wristed democrats, can anyone clue me in? When your contry has been attacked the best strategy is to unite your friends and divide your enemies. Bush has done the opposite in spades.

[underworld]

it's all perspective man... most of what you just said is your interpretation of what is going on. the reps can say you're delusional...the dems can say the reps are delusional. the key is to not tell someone they are wrong or that they don't know better.

 

for instance... it seems like the left is more willing to try and understand the feelings and actions of some terrorists than it is to try and understand and discuss issues with their fellow countrymen. (sure that happens on the right too...but look thru these posts and see which side was doing the name calling)

 

bush is president at a fucked up time in the world. anyone in power right now would be the focus of much much ridicule.

[Jim]

So the answer is he's facing difficult problems and he's not really doing so bad? Here's my take.

 

Bush squandered a world of political will after 911 by going on his Iraq adventure and lying about the reasons why. While catering to coporate interests and the wealthy at home (medicare bill and tax cuts) we have dug a big money pit that will last for a generation. If these wars are so important, why not pull in our fiscal belt a bit and ask all to sacrifice some? We defeated Hitler faster.

 

By splitting our armed forces where they are needed (Afganistan) and where they were not (Iraq) we are losing both fronts badly. The Taliban have come back strong and now control 80% of Afganistan and are with 100 mi of Kabul. And in the backgrond Korea is thumbing it's nose at us, China is making inroads across all technology sectors and is strategicly working the middle east. Oh yea, Iran will control Iraq thur the Shia once we pull out.

 

The level of corruption of the republican congress has reached new levels with DeLay and his instutinal K Street project and the money scams with Abronoff, Reid, and Grover Norquist.

 

The executive power grab and the trimming of constitutional rights highlights the huburis of this administration. The most disturbing recent trend is Bush's rhetoric lying about democrats, flatly stating that they want to wait until another attack before doing anything about terrorists. This administration consitently attacks any critic (inside or outside the party) as a terrorist sympathizer. It's base, extremely devisive, and does nothing for unifying the country towards common goals in difficult times.

 

And lastly, Bush is dumb as a stump. He doesn't read, his speech writers have to keep things at or below three syllables, he has no grasp of world history or diplomacy, and brushes off advice, except from pappa Cheney. He recently said that he would not waiver from Iraq even if Laura and his dog were the only ones who agreed with him. Such bullheadedness might be admirable for an offensive lineman but tragic for a head of state.

 

So - just the facts now and not some mealy-mouthed comment on perspective. Give me a list of what you are proud of that the Bush administration has accoplished. And don't start by listing things that didn't happen - like another attack. Give me a straight-forward list of accomplishments. I'm waiting.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Jim

[chucK]

I attended the gathering at the start of the march at the UW yesterday and there was one lady with a sign that made me think. Jim's commment above reminded me.

 

The sign said, "name one good thing he's done".

 

I don't know if Underworld attempted to address this. From my perspective his last sentence seems to be more of an apology than citing anything good about Bush.

 

It seems to me that this has been a fairly reasonable discussion. Underworld seems to be upset about name-calling, but shit man, you've been around cc.com for ~700 posts. Don't you think this was a fairly reasonable discussion?

 

Anyway, I'd just like to sincerely ask that lady's question to you folks. There seems to be a bunch of you in the discussion who are either against or definitely not for the ideas behind this protest (get Bush out, the world can't wait).

 

Be brave in the face of these nasty liberal namecallers.

 

Name one thing you think Bush has done right. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

 

Just wondering if it's that you actually support Bush's policies, or if you like specific Democrat candidates less, or something else that's making you support him.

 

To me it's unfathomable. I really can't think of one thing I support, and anybody who slogs through my posts understands there's a lot of stuff I don't like. You got this far. Educate me? I'd appreciate it.

 

I won't namecall, but I can't vouch for everyone in the discussion.

[ClimbingPanther]

When your contry has been attacked the best strategy is to unite your friends and divide your enemies. Bush has done the opposite in spades.

Sad but very true. The attack itself obviously united us for a while, but that had nothing to do with Bush, and he squandered the so-called "capital" he got. I agree that his bull-headed tactics and persona are really not becoming of a president. The impression I get is that he's stuck as a 2-year old, still trying to fit the square block through the round hole. He won't learn even from his own experience that he's polarizing the world against us by fighting this threat his way. You gotta have clear objectives first, then bring great minds together to figure out how to get those objectives. He and others high up [iMHO Cheney is a bigger problem even than Bush; Bush=just weak, Cheney=criminal if anyone is] seemed to want to start something in Iraq with no clear objectives besides "kill!", and they've repulsed many true thinkers away from them.

 

To answer about things Bush has done that were good, I do like the concept of the No Child Left Behind act. Schools need to be held responsible when kids aren't learning what they need. I think the tax cuts were theoretically a good step, but they had to be followed by Congress trimming their pork to keep the budget balanced. I'm very ashamed to be a Republican when we can't control spending and get the budget balanced. Didn't we harangue on the Dem's for generations about their love to spend? Good grief!

[Mr_Phil]

sounds like a booming success.

 

As marchers headed toward the Federal Building downtown, one person was arrested for investigation of unlawful possession of a firearm after being seen with a rifle wrapped in a blanket.

 

Ghandi would approve?

[chucK]

Charlton Heston would

[Dechristo]

[underworld]

this protest yesterday. the defense of it was that you gotta do something. gotta stand up for what you believe in. even if it isn't popular.

 

scale that up. bush is doing what he believes in (and what he was elected to do) even tho it isn't reported as popular.

 

we live in a small corner of the world here in seattle. mainstream in seattle is FAR from mainstream in the rest of the country, save san fran, new york and the other metros. middle america, or as you put them "rednecks" are the majority of america. like it or not.

 

and if you say that the mojority IS on your side - then why were only a few hundred at the protest yesterday? you say apathy. well, even if it is - it shows that those that are 'apathetic' don't feel strong enough about it to be out there. so, in other words, they are on the fence. that isn't wrong of them, it's their choices and beliefs. but actions speak louder than polls.

[underworld]

oh yeah... and the name calling - i'm far from taking it personally. i just wanted to point out the obvious difference in tactics. don't worry, you won't hurt my feeling.

[underworld]

And lastly, Bush is dumb as a stump. He doesn't read, his speech writers have to keep things at or below three syllables...

 

then you say:

 

So - just the facts now and not some mealy-mouthed comment on perspective....

 

[Jim]

Still waiting for that list.

[dinomyte]

Here's a list from Bush's first term, Jim.

 

http://www.boycottliberalism.com/Bush.htm

 

As one would expect, every "accomplishment" is debatable, just as it would be under a Democrat.

 

For example, many groups would say that banning partial birth abortions was a good thing. Many would say it was not.

 

And, as you know, it's always tough to come up with positives. We always concentrate on the negatives.

 

I guarantee you that every "diehard Rep" can come up with a great list of Clinton's inadequacies, and could probably shoot down every accomplishment.

 

Each party always provides us plenty of ammo!

 

Finding a list of accomplishments for any president is pretty easy, as is the "why that's all BS" from the other party!!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Still waiting for that list.

 

like the "list" has not been discussed before. you lefties hate everything Bush has done or said to the point of hysteria. anything that is listed, you will attack and deny is a success.

 

for your edification I will list this:

 

since 9/11 there has not been a single successful terrorist attack on the US.

 

I know what you liberals will say in response to this, and, as you post your inane comments, I will chuckle aloud with satisfaction at knowing your predictability so well.

[StevenSeagal]

bush is doing what he believes in (and what he was elected to do) even tho it isn't reported as popular.

 

To some extent, we elect leaders on their values, but at the end of the day, the government is supposed to execute the will of the people. Bush has made it clear that the latter matters not- US policy is entirely about HIM, and his own values, his own personal agenda. He has a dangerously inflated self-importance that doesn't fit with a supposed democracy.

 

Not "reported popular" suggests that all the people are actually behind him and that it's just a biased media reporting otherwise. However, the "apathy", or whatever you wish to call it discussed above- fence sitting, if you prefer- of a majority of the population that prevents people from any activism such as protests, suggests there's a "silent majority" in the US which strongly disapproves of Bush's tactics but is choosing to remain civil and quiet. The propaganda machine of the far right has unfortunately scared most true conservatives (read: NOT Bush) into thinking that there's no alternative but to support the president- this dividing the nation and issues into black and white simple-isms. Either you are for Bush, or you want taxes to skyrocket and you want to help terrorists. Support for anyone other than Bush means you want gay marriage, abortion, etc.

 

Right now, true conservatives actually are the group who can change this in a minute- they just need to recognize they've been duped. And the nation as a whole would do well to examine it's blind worship of authority and be done with it. No one is Above the Law.

[NealH]

Still waiting for that list.

 

Can I get back to you in two years after Congressional control goes back to the Democrats? If the Democrats (assuming they gain control) don't waste all of their time on Iraq and other investigations (while probably justified), I can definitely see some legislation coming out of the next two years that most everybody could point to and say that's pretty good, and which Bush could rightly take at least some credit for. I generally think that the best laws arise when the President is a different party than Congress (e.g., Reagan with a Democratic Congress and Clinton after the Republicans took control--aside from the impeachment nonsense). But then, I'm pretty cynical about both parties . . .

[chucK]

WTF?! Here's an item from your list

"President Bush speaks to Greek Community Leaders"

 

Is that one of the things that you like about GW Bush?

 

I'm asking for ONE THING that you can say that YOU think GW Bush did a good job.

 

If you can support it with reasons that would be even better.

 

I'm just trying to understand why everyone isn't totally pissed.

[minx]

Thanks for clogging up 2nd Ave today assholes. It was real fun maneuvering my bike amongst all the pissed off motorists trying to get home.

 

 

 

shit--sorry i missed. even in a car, my aim sucks.

[dinomyte]

My cynicism again....I am not sure that there is a silent majority that disapproves.

 

I think that there is a silent majority that doesn't give a rip till it impacts them heavily.

 

I guarantee you the families of the victims of 9/11, the folks from New Orleans, etc. - they have taken a side!

 

Many of us see very little personal impacts no matter who is president.

 

I think I got a little bit of a tax break with Bush, but my great-great-great grandchildren will live in a world where more species are extinct, and it's 10 degrees warmer.

 

Our society is rather apathetic (as demonstated by voter turnout), perhaps because we don't feel personally impacts.

 

Obviously, folks can say that we are all personally impacted (and we are), I'm just saying that we don't think about it every day.

[G-spotter]

since 9/11 there has not been a single successful terrorist attack on the US.

 

Anthrax letters, post 9/11, STILL UNSOLVED 5 YEARS LATER, killed some Americans, what's your definition of terrorist attack there quibbler?

[Jim]

Here's a list from Bush's first term, Jim.

 

http://www.boycottliberalism.com/Bush.htm

 

Oh Jesus. You can't think of anything on your own? You have to search the web for a list of accomplishments that include this(?!)

 

President Bush speaks at christening ceremony for the USS Ronald Reagan

President Bush speaks at Chicago Mercantile Exchange

President Bush and meets with President Kim Dae-Jung of South Korea

President Bush meets with National Energy Policy Development Group

President and Mrs. Bush Speak to women business leaders

President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel

President Bush speaks at La Sociedad Cubana

President Bush welcomes Catholic Leaders to White House

President Bush proclaims Education and Sharing Day, USA

President Bush speaks to Greek Community Leaders

President Bush speaks to high tech leaders

President Bush speaks to African American leaders

President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month.

President Bush speaks to members of the Baseball Hall of Fame

President Bush signs resolution repealing ergonomics regulation that repeals burdensome and broad regulation dealing with ergonomics

 

Seriously - just tell me in plain words and not some cyperlink. The ten best things that Bush has accomplished while having both houses of Congress.

 

Again, if you can't come up with anything but a non-event (no terrorists attacks, no depression, etc) it's lame-o.

Waiting again.

[enelson]

since 9/11 there has not been a single successful terrorist attack on the US.

 

I know what you liberals will say in response to this, and, as you post your inane comments, I will chuckle aloud with satisfaction at knowing your predictability so well.

 

ok, maybe you predicted this coming, but it is something i care about so i am going to post it. sure bush hasdone some things to stop attacks, more security etc. but what has he done to prevent the continuation of an atmosphere where terriorists will want to attack us. i think what is more important than just making sure no one attackes us is to builld a social, political and economic climate where these terrorists will not have the need to attack america. all of the actions bush has taken have done nothing to resolve this, and i personally think that is a problem. if terrorists want to hurt the us they will find a way. we need a president that will work to take away any reasons a terrorist would have to attack us.